Tired of being saved

[uncertaindrumer]

And Ana, you say the Church has done stupid thigns in the name of religion? I would ask for specific instances. Granted, the Papal States DID do some stupid things, but that was NOT the Church. That was the Popes using political power that they should never have had. They might have hidden under the guise of religion, but in truth, their actions had nothing to DO with it, and hence, nothing to do with the Church.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

And Ana, you say the Church has done stupid thigns in the name of religion? I would ask for specific instances. Granted, the Papal States DID do some stupid things, but that was NOT the Church. That was the Popes using political power that they should never have had. They might have hidden under the guise of religion, but in truth, their actions had nothing to DO with it, and hence, nothing to do with the Church.

Humm, AGAIN ? I 've already said it to you...and also gave you quite a few examples...actually someone in the name of the Catholic religion did stupid things...the Popes did, so arent the Popes the most important Roman Catholic Church.authorities?
You are a religious guy and believe in God, fine.So this kinda of thing won't cease you being a firm believer.
And also, I'm not saying I don't believe in God.

PS:Look, I will stop it now...cuz I don't want to argue with you no more...ok?

[uncertaindrumer]

Well actually I still haven't been given ANY examples of Popes doing stupid things from you, ALTHOUGH they most certainly have. But no Catholic will ever claim Popes are PERFECT. They cannot teach error when proclaiming a doctrine to the whole Church, and when it is a matter of faith and morals. THAT'S IT. Outside of Faith and morals within a teaching to the whole church, they can still sin, be stupid, and do ridiculous things like the rest of us.

[Jester]

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[uncertaindrumer]

Most certainly so. However, no "objective material" would ever go so far as to deny the Gospels historical validity. Only the MOST prejudiced of historical scholars would do so.

But of course, the Gospels being historically valid does not necessarily mean Jesus was God. That takes Faith, although reason does have a lot to do with it, such as the fact that eleven men--the surviving Apostles--either: knew it was a hoax and died for it anyway (which is ridiculous) or knew it was true, and thus they died for Him. That makes sense.

Sure there are a million arguments either way, so it definitely takes Faith to believe in Jesus.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

Well actually I still haven't been given ANY examples of Popes doing stupid things from you, ALTHOUGH they most certainly have. But no Catholic will ever claim Popes are PERFECT. They cannot teach error when proclaiming a doctrine to the whole Church, and when it is a matter of faith and morals. THAT'S IT. Outside of Faith and morals within a teaching to the whole church, they can still sin, be stupid, and do ridiculous things like the rest of us.

Examples??? PM...Uncertain...PM... don't you remember it?
But I'll send another to you later, Ok?

[Jester]

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[NakedSmurf]

Considering I've been living the last 5 years of my life with a Thelogical Family (Thanks Jester) :| You shouldn't always believe what's spoken. You need to research and figure out the right. Who cares for what religion "say" it's all about ideas and ones one spiritual journey.

Point of Order. I don't know what scholars you are refering to, who say.. The New Testiment (the gospels) are historically viable... but you obviously havn't been Reading and Doing Research. You have been taking people's words for it.

True some events may have happened, but not nessesarly as they are told in the bible.

[uncertaindrumer]

Why on Earth would people die for something they KNOW not to be true? Joseph Smith never died for his Faith. He actually profited QUITE A BIT from it.

And what evidence do you have that the gosepsl were written 300 years after his death? Very little or none, becasue it just is not true. Also, the Gospels do not contradict each other. The most serious contradiction is their different descriptions of the Robe Jesus was wearing, and that is easily explained by even common sense.

But like I said: if you don't want to believe, you aren't GOING to believe.

[Jester]

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[NakedSmurf]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jester)

Ok lets get one thing stright here ...,..I never said Joseph smith died for his faith I said he dupped thousands.... now some mormans have died for their faith via missionaries being killed in the field but that is an other topic all together....

Lets get another thing stright here while we are at it.... My FATHER is a published author and theology scholar and professer who has done over 2 decades of research in christanity it is his lifes work. He has had his doctrite (from Dallas Theological Seminary One of the most respected seminaries in the country) for damn near 25 years. Even he agrees that the gospels were not penned until at least one centery after Jesus's death. They were penned based on word of mouth stories passed from the books from whom they are named.

Here is my question to you .... HAVE you even done research on this or are you just going to your pastor for advice who of course (more likely than not) has no theology degree at best a minor in bible?? please do answer me that. cuz I have years of research on my side.

Right on Jester

[uncertaindrumer]

I HAVE done research on it actually, I'll get sources later.

[Sincirr]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jester)

I feel that christians who don't read objective materials or look outside the "box" they live in are irresponsible at best this is just my :2cents"

Fair enough. I agree heaps with that.

But I am gonna be very careful reading stuff like the Gnostic Gospels cos there is tarot reading and alchemy involved to name two of their spiritual sources.

I have looked into alchemy and tarot reading, so I will think twice about anything else coming from the Gnostic collective!

....This aint just about literature with you though, your whole issue with Christianity. It aint just about U reading something and the lights turned on. And I recon U know that.

Also, for others that spoke of christians doing dumbass shit in the name of God over the centuries, I totally agree with U. I unfortunately have met Jesus and am in love with him, so I am unfortunately associated with them! Bah!

One thing the pope did was bless tanks as they went out to war once. Grrrr. See what I mean? Just drives me NUTS!

[uncertaindrumer]

I don't ever recall a Pope blessing "tanks" although he might have blessed the soliders, and that would be perfectly fine.

Also, I would recommend ANYONE to read the Founding of Christendom by Warren H. Carroll. It is undoubtedly from a Christian persective, but he backs all of his history up with facts, mostly from neutral sources, and ANYONE would learn from reading it, especially volume 1.

[Jester]

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