Pope Offends Muslims Worldwide

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

So, it's not offensive to you as a Muslim when a terrorist is chanting to Allah when blows somebody up? Or when they think they'll get a bunch of virgins in Heaven for carrying out a suicide attack? I'm not saying that Islam is a violent religiong, but where's your outrage when Al Qaeda members kill in the name of Islam?

you absoulutely right her bro...and i am glad.... Chase, do u think i am happy with the way things are going on the Islamic countries, have i ever tried to support any of the violance and unease...... but do u think Al-Qaeda has a registered office in my city, or in any place in the world, do u think the executions, that are often followed by a video tape of it, which you are referening is made in some public park...... terrorism has no faith, has no face and ofcource, has no address........ dont you think the military dictator of my country, which you have often made fun of us for, isnt doing his best to curb out this extremism in my country, but you see Chase, environment determines the growth of many things, just like a rose cannot be grown inside the seabed........ you have to understand that the emotional outrage, hatered and bitrayel, which muslims feel from the actions of many many western countries, for theri presence is saudia but if that being old, killings in Iraq, and Palestine, which for me is the mother of all issues, which can ofcource be solved in a matter of days, but isnt....... alll these things, plus the unbalancecd behaviours of relgious leaders of all religion ..... its not very productive to what we are hoping for....... and you can relate this all to whate ever past discussions we have had between us and thats the main reason why i am so much opposed to the actions of your administration..... you might say that terrorist are trained and built in the Islamic countries for most of theri orrigin is from Islamic countires....but i will say that they get theri feed (hatred) from western countires.... you can loosely blame the whole of Islamic society for not controlling the mal-practice of religion, in although a minority, but stilll..... but you have to understand Chase, that the deaths of thousands and thousands of muslims every month, yes Chase, you have to admit....THOUSANDS EVERY MONTH, and they are my family............. what do u expect........

[Chase]

Okay, since you completely didn't answer my question... I'll ask it again.

So, it's not offensive to you as a Muslim when a terrorist is chanting to Allah when blows somebody up? Or when they think they'll get a bunch of virgins in Heaven for carrying out a suicide attack? I'm not saying that Islam is a violent religion, but where's your outrage when Al Qaeda members kill in the name of Islam?

The point I'm trying to make here Bilal is that it's hypocritical for Muslims to riot in the streets because of comments from the Pope, but when a Islamic religious leader makes similar statements towards the Western world or Israel... the Islamic world is quiet. The same goes for a man like Osama bin Laden whose motives are embedded in Islam. Where's the outrage over the people who are destroying your religion?! That's the problem. That's why Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists and everyone else are growing tired of having to deal with such violent hatred coming from Islamic extremism. The people who are violently exporting your religion are telling the world that they refuse to live in peace and cooperate with people different from themselves. That, my friend, is what's turning Islam into a fascist movement.

[Ana4Stapp]

I found it very interesting so I want to share it to all of you guys:

New York Times Editorial
The Pope’s Words

Published: September 16, 2006
There is more than enough religious anger in the world. So it is particularly disturbing that Pope Benedict XVI has insulted Muslims, quoting a 14th-century description of Islam as “evil and inhuman.”

In the most provocative part of a speech this week on “faith and reason,” the pontiff recounted a conversation between an “erudite” Byzantine Christian emperor and a “learned” Muslim Persian circa 1391. The pope quoted the emperor saying, “Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

Muslim leaders the world over have demanded apologies and threatened to recall their ambassadors from the Vatican, warning that the pope’s words dangerously reinforce a false and biased view of Islam. For many Muslims, holy war — jihad — is a spiritual struggle, and not a call to violence. And they denounce its perversion by extremists, who use jihad to justify murder and terrorism.

The Vatican issued a statement saying that Benedict meant no offense and in fact desired dialogue. But this is not the first time the pope has fomented discord between Christians and Muslims.

In 2004 when he was still the Vatican’s top theologian, he spoke out against Turkey’s joining the European Union, because Turkey, as a Muslim country was “in permanent contrast to Europe.”

A doctrinal conservative, his greatest fear appears to be the loss of a uniform Catholic identity, not exactly the best jumping-off point for tolerance or interfaith dialogue.

The world listens carefully to the words of any pope. And it is tragic and dangerous when one sows pain, either deliberately or carelessly. He needs to offer a deep and persuasive apology, demonstrating that words can also heal.

[Chase]

... and for many a "jihad" is driving a bomb laden car into a Kurdish neighborhood killing as many people as one can. Maybe I should start violently protesting the second an Islamic holy man calls me an infidel for my religious beliefs.

This is getting unbelievable.

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Okay, since you completely didn't answer my question... I'll ask it again.

So, it's not offensive to you as a Muslim when a terrorist is chanting to Allah when blows somebody up? Or when they think they'll get a bunch of virgins in Heaven for carrying out a suicide attack? I'm not saying that Islam is a violent religion, but where's your outrage when Al Qaeda members kill in the name of Islam?

The point I'm trying to make here Bilal is that it's hypocritical for Muslims to riot in the streets because of comments from the Pope, but when a Islamic religious leader makes similar statements towards the Western world or Israel... the Islamic world is quiet. The same goes for a man like Osama bin Laden whose motives are embedded in Islam. Where's the outrage over the people who are destroying your religion?! That's the problem. That's why Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists and everyone else are growing tired of having to deal with such violent hatred coming from Islamic extremism. The people who are violently exporting your religion are telling the world that they refuse to live in peace and cooperate with people different from themselves. That, my friend, is what's turning Islam into a fascist movement.

Chase, i answere your question before, i am not discussing hte whole world issue and just concentrating on the topic in hand, and as i said, its very low to speak such remarks about a personallity so high in our eyes, and then you are asking me why are we feeling offended. the reason you think its hipocratic of us is absolutely wrong, atleast in the topic in hand, cause no one will blame JESUS CHRIST if a Christian commits a crime in the name of religion...... its the wrong doing of that one particular group of Christian, and not, ofcource not of the HOLY JESUS CHRIST...... so this to me, is an issue of moral, rather than of hipocracy.....

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

... and for many a "jihad" is driving a bomb laden car into a Kurdish neighborhood killing as many people as one can. Maybe I should start violently protesting the second an Islamic holy man calls me an infidel for my religious beliefs.

This is getting unbelievable.

Chase, you have every right to protest if any one calls you anything....... you want to "violently protest it"......i'll say beat the crap out of anyone who calls you infidle based on your belives...... but Chase, may be you are taking this term ""infidle" out of its original meaning...... and may be your considering it as someone that has no right to live .....i am guessing thats what the meaing you are taking in your mind rright now........and not what the term actually means which is someone who dont belive in your God..... that makes me an infidle in your eyes too....... but if you are using the former meaning, which i htink you are, then do violently protest, but please be clear in your meaning.....


may be i should start Violently protesting my self if someone calls me a terrorist based on my believes..........or the based on my origin..... i hope you would allow me this justice and same level of rights for my self aswell....


about the first line of your post..... i dont find any meaning or context in it.....i can make out couple of hastly generalised, vague in reference comments my self, but i am sure i should not

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

I found it very interesting so I want to share it to all of you guys:

New York Times Editorial
The Pope’s Words

Published: September 16, 2006

thanks for posting that Ana........ hmm... Vatican has latter issued many statments contradicting what the world in general has extracted from the original comments..... and as in this article you posted, they say Pope only wanted a Dialogue..... this one sentence is being quoted again and again....

Quote:

“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

should i just switch the name of OUR HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PEACE BE UPON HIM) with any other great personality of any other religion.... will it prove anything.....

[bilal]

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[Rocketqueen]

Quote: (Originally Posted by bilal)

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he liked apolagized today ...and did something else i dont know...i just read the news flash on the internet news page..

[RalphyS]

Mixed reaction as pope expresses regret

By FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press Writer

VATICAN CITY - Pope Benedict XVI said Sunday that he is "deeply sorry" his remarks on Islam and violence offended Muslims, but the unusual expression of papal regret drew a mixed reaction from Islamic leaders as the Vatican worried about a backlash of violence.

Some Muslim leaders accepted the statement. Others said it wasn't enough, but urged Muslims to avoid violence after attacks on churches in Palestinian areas and the slaying of a nun in Somalia.

Benedict said he regretted causing offense with his speech last week in Germany, particularly his quoting of a medieval text that characterized some of the teachings of Islam's founder as "evil and inhuman" and referred to spreading Islam "by the sword."

He said those words did not reflect his own opinions.

"I hope that this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect," the pope said during his weekly Sunday appearance before pilgrims.

It was an unusual step for a leader of the Roman Catholic Church. Benedict's predecessor, Pope John Paul II, issued a number of apologies during his papacy, but they dealt with abuses and other missteps by the church in the past rather than errors on his own part.

Vatican officials had earlier sought to placate spreading Muslim anger by saying Benedict held Islam in high esteem and stressed that the central thrust of his speech was to condemn the use of any religious motivation for violence, whatever the religion.

While Benedict expressed regret his speech caused hurt, he did not retract what he said or say he was sorry he uttered what proved to be explosive words.

Anger was still intense in Muslim lands.

Two churches were set on fire in the West Bank, raising to at least seven the number of church attacks in Palestinian areas over the weekend blamed on outrage sparked by the speech.

There was also concern that the furor was behind the shooting death of an Italian missionary nun at the hospital where she worked for years in the Horn of Africa nation of Somalia. The killing came just hours after a Somali cleric condemned the pope's speech.

"Let's hope that it will be an isolated fact," the Rev. Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman, was quoted as saying by the Italian news agency ANSA.

He said the Vatican was "following with concern the consequences of this wave of hate, hoping that it does not lead to grave consequences for the church in the world."

Police across Italy were ordered to step up security out of concern that the anger could cause Roman Catholic sites to become terrorist targets. Police outside the pope's summer palace confiscated metal-tipped umbrellas and bottles of liquids from faithful.

Benedict's expression of sorrow for the offense he caused satisfied some Islamic leaders.

The head of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, a banned group but still the largest Islamic movement in that country, said the outrage was justified but predicted it would subside quickly.

"Our relations with Christians should remain good, civilized and cooperative," Mohammed Mahdi Akef told The Associated Press in Cairo.

Germany's Central Council of Muslims welcomed the pope's comments Sunday as "the most important step to calm the protest" and urged the Vatican to seek discussion with Muslim representatives to avoid lasting damage.

But others were still demanding an apology for the words, including in Turkey, where questions have been raised about whether Benedict should go ahead with a visit scheduled for November as the first trip of his papacy to a Muslim nation.

"It is very saddening. The Islamic world is expecting an explanation from the pope himself," Turkish State Minister Mehmet Aydin told reporters in Istanbul. "You either have to say this 'I'm sorry' in a proper way or not say it at all. Are you sorry for saying such a thing or because of its consequences?"

Turkish Education Minister Huseyin Celik voiced similar concern. "It is different to be sorry and to apologize," he said.

Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar told Malaysian journalists late Sunday that the pontiff must offer a full apology and retract what he said.

"Muslims have all this while felt oppressed, and the statement by the pope saying he is sorry about the angry reaction is inadequate to calm the anger, more so because he is the highest leader of the Vatican," Syed Hamid was quoted as saying by the Bernama news agency at the end of a meeting of the Nonaligned Movement in Havana, Cuba.

Mohammad al-Nujemi, a professor at the Institute of Judicial and Islamic Studies in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, expressed dismay at what he called Benedict "evading apology."

"His statements might give terrorists and al-Qaida followers legitimacy that there is really an attempt to hurt Muslims," al-Nujemi told Al-Arabiya television.

In Damascus, Syria, lawmaker Mohammad Habash said the pope offered a "clarification and not (an) apology." But Habash also called for "calm and dialogue."

Hundreds of Iranians demonstrated against the pope in cities across Iran. In Qom, the religious capital of Iran's 70 million Shiite Muslims, hard-line cleric Ahmad Khatami said the pope and President Bush were "united in order to repeat the Crusades."

The uproar is one of the biggest crises involving the Vatican in decades, and the Holy See has moved quickly in trying to defuse anger.

On Sunday, in an unusual step, the Vatican's press office rushed out translations in English and French of the pope's remarks. Typically, the Vatican doesn't translate the pope's Sunday remarks, which are delivered in Italian.

Both sides have much to gain by good relations. The Vatican and Muslims have shared stands in opposition of abortion. The Holy See, under Benedict's predecessor, John Paul II, vigorously lobbied against the Iraq war, and Benedict made numerous appeals to Israel to use restraint in its recent military campaign against Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon.

Russian President Vladimir Putin earlier urged world religious leaders to show "responsibility and restraint" to avoid what he called "extremes" in relations between faiths.

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

Turkish State Minister Mehmet Aydin told reporters in Istanbul. "You either have to say this 'I'm sorry' in a proper way or not say it at all. Are you sorry for saying such a thing or because of its consequences?"

Turkish Education Minister Huseyin Celik voiced similar concern. "It is different to be sorry and to apologize," he said.

Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar told Malaysian journalists late Sunday that the pontiff must offer a full apology and retract what he said.

The Catholic church sees the Pope as the representative of God on earth, and therefore he is infallible, so in their doctrine is is impossible for the Pope to actually state that he was wrong. If you know anything about religion, people would know that, with his 'apology' he went as far as he could go within the boundaries set by the Catholic religion. To demand more is to disrespect that religion.

On a totally different note, how come that everytime that the islam is somehow described as a backward or violent religion, they react with backward and violent actions, do they actually want to emphasize the point of the speaker that they protest so hard against.

If the islam wants respect than you have to deserve it. Respect is never given freely, you have to earn it.

[Ana4Stapp]

Hey ...saying that Pope is infalible is of course correct but the whole catholic comunity expect to see their leader using this at least with respect and responsability...whats the use in this? You cant say 'stop the violence using violent words' and Pope Benedict did it... and can you imagine if muslims had attacked Jesus or David (can you imagine jews violent reaction or do you believe in a peaceful one? )

We saw this situation before...with the cartoons episode ...its the same with maybe 'something' new, but we all know that every word from a religious leader has a big impact --we cant deny it...and frankly he should avoid to create more 'problems' between religions...

It was not only disrespectfull with muslim faith but also irresponsible with the whole world...cause we all know that a reaction comes from a action... And this is the thing that really worries me the most...

[rabidgopher04]

Sorry to drag up an old topic, but...

Mohammed did spread the religion by conquest, by the sword. It's basic history of Islam. The pope did nothing but speak the facts. And just like RalphyS said: the actions of the Muslims only reinforce what the pope said.

BTW...the pope is not infallible in everything he says, only in matters related to faith and morals. This statement has no bearing on specific core beliefs or how to live those beliefs, therefore it is not an infallible statement.

And, technically, the pope does represent all Christians, but not all Christians acknowledge the pope as an authority.

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by rabidgopher04)

Mohammed did spread the religion by conquest, by the sword. It's basic history of Islam. The pope did nothing but speak the facts. And just like RalphyS said: the actions of the Muslims only reinforce what the pope said.

The phrase " by the sword" is rather a misleading one.....its like one is saying that if you keep people in captivity, they will abide by your religion sooner or later?....

if Islam was spread through conquests and war alone, then, do you really expect to see such faithful flowers till the present day? Don't you expect people to have some sense of respect for their freedom or will? Just for example, do you think if you keep the people of Palestine in their current state, they will all be Jewish few centuries later?

Religion don't and cannot be spread through oppression, takeover or by force. Religion means submission of one's inner most conciousness to a belief, that only happens when one's heart accepts something... not if a sword is placed on its neck.

I am not denying here that in less then half a century, half of the world was conquered by Muslims..... , but it was only the removal of oppression rather than enforcement of one that caused Islam to be spread, to spread as a religion, a religion that is intact as it was 14 centuries ago, a religion that is loved and adored by its followers for what it is, no change in it or in its book....and that is a proof that Islam was spread through submission of people.

It would be better that people stop using stereotypical comments.

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by bilal)

The phrase " by the sword" is rather a misleading one.....its like one is saying that if you keep people in captivity, they will abide by your religion sooner or later?....

if Islam was spread through conquests and war alone, then, do you really expect to see such faithful flowers till the present day? Don't you expect people to have some sense of respect for their freedom or will? Just for example, do you think if you keep the people of Palestine in their current state, they will all be Jewish few centuries later?

Religion don't and cannot be spread through oppression, takeover or by force. Religion means submission of one's inner most conciousness to a belief, that only happens when one's heart accepts something... not if a sword is placed on its neck.

I am not denying here that in less then half a century, half of the world was conquered by Muslims..... , but it was only the removal of oppression rather than enforcement of one that caused Islam to be spread, to spread as a religion, a religion that is intact as it was 14 centuries ago, a religion that is loved and adored by its followers for what it is, no change in it or in its book....and that is a proof that Islam was spread through submission of people.

It would be better that people stop using stereotypical comments.

I disagree thoroughly, Latin America is now a Catholic stronghold and how did that happen, because of the conquistadores, who were not soft in their persuasions. The same can be said about Northern Africa, islam was not an indigeneous religion to that region, but it was a religion of occupiers at first.

In fact the only way religion can grow is by force and I don't mean this in a warlike way, but children who know nothing of religion are indoctrinated from birth on, forced to go to church, temple or mosque. In every other major decision in life we wait for children to become adults, they cannot vote until they are 18, they shouldn't drink until their 21 (in the US), we urge them to wait with sex until they are at a ripe age, but parents force their god on innocent children even before they can talk, so don't tell me that "Religion don't and cannot be spread through oppression, takeover or by force", it may be a subtler kind of force, but it is still force and even worse it is force on innocent children, who cannot think for themselves yet and have absolute trust in their authority figures.