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Old 10-25-2004, 08:20 PM   #1
Xterminator27
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Realigion and sick people

i got this idea from a thing i watched on the news

Lets say some guy has huntingtons desease (heretitary desease that screwes your nerv systems up)

hes a happy man, has a wife and kids, kind gentel person.
Genetic Desease kicks in when hes about 30, due to the desease he sufferes memory loss and is very agitated, he beats the shit out of his wife over little things and is extremly offencive and verbal but is still mentally alive. Rest of desease kicks in he becomes immobile has to be spoon fed then tube fed then he dies as a bitter mean and crule man.

HEAVEN OR HELL?
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Old 10-25-2004, 09:15 PM   #2
creedsister
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Heaven,
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Hush child I,ll tell you why you have Loved Me when you were weak you have given me unselfishly Kept you From Falling Falling everywhere But Your Kness you set me free to live my life you become my Reason To Survive The Great Divide you Set Me Free Ooh Our Love Is Beautiful Ooh isn,t This Beautiful Child It Seems You Have Been My Everything
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Old 10-25-2004, 11:43 PM   #3
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Heaven, becuase he does not know what he is doing, has no control over his actions, and does not understand that what he is doing is wrong. To go to hell, one must know (and be able to differentiate between) right and wrong, and intentionally choose the wrong.


H-D
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Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

Today I'm gonna love my enemies
Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
from their new album "Awake"
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Old 10-26-2004, 02:10 AM   #4
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Wtf, its not our place to judge. That is God's. This thread is pointless.

(But yes, i would say heaven, if God wanted my opinion.)
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Old 10-26-2004, 08:07 PM   #5
dario
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First off, you didn't mention if the man was a Christian or not. You said he was a kind, and good man. If someone does not accept Jesus into their life they are going to hell, not matter how kind or good they are. Now assuming he was a Christian man who accepted Jesus into his life, I believe there is no way for him to lose his salvation. He's going to heaven. Assuming he's accepted Jesus.
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Old 10-26-2004, 08:14 PM   #6
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) Heaven, becuase he does not know what he is doing, has no control over his actions, and does not understand that what he is doing is wrong. To go to hell, one must know (and be able to differentiate between) right and wrong, and intentionally choose the wrong.


H-D
Just wanted to clear this up with you that choosing to do right or wrong has nothing to do with why someone goes to hell. I am a Christian and I am going to heaven, but I am not perfect. Everyone, including myself, chooses to do wrong over right without even thinking sometimes. The reason someone goes to hell is because they denied Jesus and his gift of salvation in some form or another.
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Old 10-27-2004, 01:48 AM   #7
RMadd
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assuming the man is saved and truly believes in Christ Jesus as his savior, he is heaven-bound.
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Old 10-27-2004, 02:21 AM   #8
Ann Allusion
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Quote: First off, you didn't mention if the man was a Christian or not. You said he was a kind, and good man. If someone does not accept Jesus into their life they are going to hell, not matter how kind or good they are. Now assuming he was a Christian man who accepted Jesus into his life, I believe there is no way for him to lose his salvation. He's going to heaven. Assuming he's accepted Jesus.

so by this route of thinking, as well as that of some others here...y'all make it sound like heaven is some kind of "exclusive club"....and Jesus, as you people see him is the "ticket"...

that may be how you see following Jesus' teachings turn out...but I disagree...

it IS up to God to choose where we go when we pass from this world...each and everyone of us have a chance to advance our spiritual beings to a higher plane...(heaven to some)...and it all depends on what we need to "learn" as to how far we advance each time. Following the teachings of Jesus, because He is teaching the Universal Law of God is how we do it...but it is God that knows and only God that makes the choice of whether we go to "heaven"...not another human that questions whether we are "Christian" or not...

reguarding the origional question...it is Gods choice what happens to us when we pass...we that are still living should concern ourselves with where we might eventually end up and learn our lessons well...
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Old 10-27-2004, 02:39 AM   #9
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Quote: (Originally Posted by dario) First off, you didn't mention if the man was a Christian or not. You said he was a kind, and good man. If someone does not accept Jesus into their life they are going to hell, not matter how kind or good they are. Now assuming he was a Christian man who accepted Jesus into his life, I believe there is no way for him to lose his salvation. He's going to heaven. Assuming he's accepted Jesus.
Quote: (Originally Posted by dario) Just wanted to clear this up with you that choosing to do right or wrong has nothing to do with why someone goes to hell. I am a Christian and I am going to heaven, but I am not perfect. Everyone, including myself, chooses to do wrong over right without even thinking sometimes. The reason someone goes to hell is because they denied Jesus and his gift of salvation in some form or another.
But you will go to hell if you don't repent for what you choose to do wrong. I am a Christian, too, and I know what I'm talking about. Jesus died so that we can live again, but we must want to do good. The Bible says (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26; KJV) "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Just saying your Christian and expecting that to get you into heaven is useless. Simply being Christian (as you suggest) is not enough to get you into heaven.

Now let me ask you this. If someone never has the oppertunity to know Jesus, will they go to heaven or hell? Since (to be technical) they never rejected him, by your theory, they will go to heaven. If you say "but what about Muslim extremists who are suicide bombers? Since they're not following the Bible, they're going to hell." But they are being loyal to their god (Allah), so will they go to Allah's heaven? There's no point in trying to cite Bible sources to prove what's going to happen to them, because they do not believe in the Bible. It's like trying to prove the ancient egyptians were wrong for being polytheistic (believing in more than one god) because the bible says there is only one God. You can't prove they were wrong because the Bible had not been written in that time. My point is this: God will judge all. At some time, all people will have the oppertunity to know God, but until that time, you (and by that I mean everyone on earth) should not say if someone we don't even know is going to heaven or not. It's about more than simply accepting God. I believe that good people who may not have been "devout Christians" can go to heaven.

Just out of curiosity (please don't get upset by my asking), but are you one of those extreme radicals who strongly believes that only Christians can go to heaven? (Meaning Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. will have no chance of getting into heaven if they die while members of their respective religions.)


H-D
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Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

Today I'm gonna love my enemies
Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
from their new album "Awake"
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Old 10-27-2004, 10:30 AM   #10
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Colin... Catholics are Christians, just so you know
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Old 10-27-2004, 04:17 PM   #11
Xterminator27
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Quote: (Originally Posted by dario) First off, you didn't mention if the man was a Christian or not. You said he was a kind, and good man. If someone does not accept Jesus into their life they are going to hell, not matter how kind or good they are. Now assuming he was a Christian man who accepted Jesus into his life, I believe there is no way for him to lose his salvation. He's going to heaven. Assuming he's accepted Jesus.

K so were all fine but those billions of other people who have never heard of christianity or the billions of people before jesus's time or the billions of hindus/islams/jews who belive jesus was never the son of god will all burn in hell regardless of their goodness to mankind or purity because they were never taught about christianity.

Yhea and everyone who dosnt worship those hindu statues every day or everyone who dosnt pray 5 musilmin prayers every day are all going to hell too. Yhea thats right, because christianity MUST be the only right religion becuse its the only one you know, regardless that there were people on earth hundreds of thousand years before Jesus even existed. And most religions like judisim and such are much much older then christianity.
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Old 10-27-2004, 10:18 PM   #12
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Ok, I realize that I have struck a nerve with a lot of you so I will try to explain myself. I am not saying that if you are not a Christian you will not go to heaven. The Bible says that. John 14:6 says, "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" So then yes, I am saying that you must believe in Jesus and in his teachings to go to heaven.
In response to you terminator, you said, sarcastically I might add, that "Christianity must be the right religion because thats the only one I know." I have studied other religions and Christianity is not the only religion that claims exclusivity. Muslims radically claim exclusivity. So its not only Christianity thats claiming to be the only way.
C.S. Lewis, a former atheist, spent extensive time studying world religions and came to the conclusion that Christianity is the only religion that makes sense. If you've ever heard of C.S. Lewis, he's a very respected author. That might not mean anything to you and thats fine. Now, its difficult for me to write on this topic when I don't know where some of you stand on this issue of Christianity and Jesus.
As for you Higher Desire, I would like to apologize for our miscommunication. When mentioning hell, I thought you meant that the only way to go to hell is failing to repent of your wrongs. I would hope you agree with me that not accepting Jesus as your savior is the reason someone goes to hell. And also to your question about me being an extreme radical that believes only Christians go to heaven, I would like to ask you a question. You say you are a Christian, and you, quote,"know what you are talking about", how can you not believe only Christians can go to heaven? The Bible clearly states, which you quoted earlier, that Jesus is the only way to the Father. You cannot just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you want to believe in and which parts you don't. 2 Timothy 3:16 says,"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."

I encourage any of you, whether you are a Christian or not, to read the book, "The Case for Christ" . The author was a former atheist and journalist, who was looking for problems with Christianity so he could cripple it. He decided to investigate the areas of Christianity that dealt with Jesus being God and being the only way to heaven. But instead of proving Christianity wrong, he became a Christian himself. By honestly looking at all of the evidence that pointed towards Jesus, this man knew that Christianity had to be true. If you are a honest seeker of the truth, you will want to read this book. I have read it and its sequel, The Case for Faith, and it has made me a stronger Christian.
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Old 10-27-2004, 11:34 PM   #13
Higher_Desire
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Quote: (Originally Posted by RMadd) Colin... Catholics are Christians, just so you know
Not exactly... they are but they aren't. The Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthadox religions were Christian sects until they began fighting so bad in, I believe the 18th century, but I could be wrong, and they excommunicated each other from Christianity. So basically, they're pretty much identical to Christianity, but are not allowed to call themselves that because of the other banning it.

Quote: (Originally Posted by dario) As for you Higher Desire, I would like to apologize for our miscommunication. When mentioning hell, I thought you meant that the only way to go to hell is failing to repent of your wrongs. I would hope you agree with me that not accepting Jesus as your savior is the reason someone goes to hell. And also to your question about me being an extreme radical that believes only Christians go to heaven, I would like to ask you a question. You say you are a Christian, and you, quote,"know what you are talking about", how can you not believe only Christians can go to heaven? The Bible clearly states, which you quoted earlier, that Jesus is the only way to the Father. You cannot just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you want to believe in and which parts you don't. 2 Timothy 3:16 says,"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."
No hard feelings. I absolutely agree that if one has the oppertunity to know God, but chooses not to, they will go to hell. To answer your question, I believe that if someone of another religion that does not know God as we do, (Muslims, for example) but do not have the oppertunity to, will not go directly to hell because since they don't believe in the bible (perhaps a better way of saying that would be they have no knowledge of it's teachings), they cannot be proved wrong with it. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself right. Sometime's it's difficult to put my thoughts to words. Let's put it like this, I believe (and I have no proof to back this up) that there is a kind of "waiting area" in the afterlife, where people who could not know God have the oppertunity to learn of him. If they choose not to, then they go to hell. Maybe I'm completly wrong, but that is my theory. However, the bible does say that everyone WILL be able to learn of God, and there are people who have died without knowing him. God wants to save us from hell, and I don't think he would let people die without knowing him just so he could condemn them. I mean, Jesus died to save us. All of us. It was just wasted time if he skipped a few people.
Quote: (Originally Posted by dario) I encourage any of you, whether you are a Christian or not, to read the book, "The Case for Christ" .

If you are a honest seeker of the truth, you will want to read this book. I have read it and its sequel, The Case for Faith, and it has made me a stronger Christian.
I've never read the first one, but I have the second one, and it is very good.


H-D
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Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

Today I'm gonna love my enemies
Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
from their new album "Awake"
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Old 10-28-2004, 10:17 PM   #14
Xterminator27
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Quote: (Originally Posted by dario) In response to you terminator, you said,.....


"but those billions of other people who have never heard of christianity or the billions of people whom existed before jesus's time "

is my main point
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Old 10-29-2004, 08:16 PM   #15
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Xterminator27) "but those billions of other people who have never heard of christianity or the billions of people whom existed before jesus's time "

is my main point

And its a very legitimate point at that. So I will try to answer this to the best of my ability. First off, I don't know if I would use the words, 'billions of people' when refering to people not knowing about Christianity. Christianity is the largest religion in the world, so I'm assuming you are talking about native people on islands, or something like that. There are thousands of people out there who have not come in contact with modern religions, so I think I understand what you might be talking about. Now I don't know what your stance is on the Bible, but to me it is the WORD of God, it is truth. It says that God assures us that all who honestly seek him, who act in faith on the knowledge of God that they possess, will be rewarded. God will reveal Himself to them, whether it be through nature, or a missionary. Now if a missionary never visits there island or whatever, God still reveals himself through nature. He is all around us, we just need to earnestly seek Him. Romans 1:20 says, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Once again, I don't know your feelings on the Bible so this could mean nothing to you.
Now regarding the second part of your statement I guess there are different ways I can go about answering it. I think I will go the more simpler route unless you would like the more detailed one.
People still needed to believe and have faith to get into heaven. They had to follow God's commandments and obey his laws. The book of Hebrews would be very good to read if you would really like to know all of the details. Back then the main religion was Judaism, not Christianity, but the Jews knew that the Messiah(meaning Jesus)was coming. When he did come, he proclaimed he was the Son of God, the awaited Messiah. His teachings have never been matched, and never will be. Christianity would take over the world. I find it very hard to believe that someone would deny that Jesus was the Son of God when the evidence for it is so overwhelming. Now since his claim of being the Son of God is truth, then wouldn't it make sense that his teachings would be truth. Sorry, I realize that this last part might be irrelavent to the question, I just get excited when I talk about this stuff. But to summarize the answer for you I believe that everyone has been given an opportunity to know God and to follow Him. And people before Jesus's time had to follow God's laws and put there faith in Him. I hope that some of this has been a help to you, but if it hasn't I would be more than willing to help you find the answers you might be looking for. When people ask difficult questions about Christianity I don't want to just shrug and say, "Well, I don't know the answer to that, but believe in Jesus you sinner!" No, thats the wrong way to go about it. Searching for answers to the most difficult questions not only pushes me to seek, but when I do it makes my faith even stronger.
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