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Old 04-05-2005, 08:55 PM   #16
aussiecreeder
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excuses? i'm not making excuses because i am baptised. however you are making an ordiance nescessary for salavation which would mean that man helps to save HIMSELF which is contary which christianity is all about. read up on doctrines such as predestination for example.
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Old 04-06-2005, 07:28 AM   #17
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Quote: (Originally Posted by facelessman) so how would you interpet john 3:5? its clear, it tells me that baptism is very necessary. what more do you need?
John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"

Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.

If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

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Old 04-06-2005, 09:48 AM   #18
aussiecreeder
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Quote: (Originally Posted by HeavenBesideYou) John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"

Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.

If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

Heaven


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Old 04-06-2005, 03:28 PM   #19
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Quote: (Originally Posted by HeavenBesideYou) John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"

Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.

If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

Heaven

In the New Testament, after Christ is born, he goes about his ministry and gained followers. Though they were not technically known as "Christians" they were called the "Followers of Christ." They became the foundations of would later be branded by men as "Christian."

Personally, I don't know why you say that baptism of repentence is not practiced, because it is the essential part in the conversion to Christ. One is baptized as a symbolic "washing away of sin" which is repentence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying you have to be baptized every time you sin. It is showing the changing of an old life into a new life with Christ. When baptized, you promise to turn away from your old ways and live a Christ-like life.

Lastly, I personally do not know of any Christian church that claims baptism isn't necessary. If you could please tell me some, that would be much appreciated.


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Old 04-07-2005, 01:07 AM   #20
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Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) excuses? i'm not making excuses because i am baptised. however you are making an ordiance nescessary for salavation which would mean that man helps to save HIMSELF which is contary which christianity is all about. read up on doctrines such as predestination for example.
In Baptism it is God who is doing the work. God is the one pouring out the grace, but of course it requires some human action.

Take the Bible - you could say that it is just a man-made set of texts. But reality is that God worked through the people who wrote them (hence divine inspiration) in order to communicate his message.

So in baptism someone needs to perform it, but it is truly God that is doing the real work. Man is not saving himself.
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Old 04-07-2005, 09:42 PM   #21
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Quote: (Originally Posted by rabidgopher04) In Baptism it is God who is doing the work. God is the one pouring out the grace, but of course it requires some human action.

Take the Bible - you could say that it is just a man-made set of texts. But reality is that God worked through the people who wrote them (hence divine inspiration) in order to communicate his message.

So in baptism someone needs to perform it, but it is truly God that is doing the real work. Man is not saving himself.
Well said.


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Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

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Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
from their new album "Awake"
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Old 04-08-2005, 04:31 AM   #22
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Forgive me for intruding, but im curious about something. If i'm not baptized, then im going to hell? I dont think that is how god intends the scripture to be taken. I believe that if you are a believer in god, he wont hold it against you if you weren't baptized. Baptizm is symbolic (in my eyes) to a cleansing of the soul. Now mind you, i am agnostic, i do not believe in organized religion so my view may not be 100% correct, i used to be protestant until some events in my life changed my opinion. But anyway, I dont think that god sees it the way everyone else does, that you either get baptized, or are sent into eternal damnation. There are so many factors that would play into that. For one thing, what if the priest that baptized you, at one time, molested a young boy (no offense, but it happens). He, in all reality, shouldnt be considered a man of god. Does that mean that everyone who got baptized by that priest is living a lie, thinking that they got baptized by a man of god, when in all reality he was a child molester, and is not truely pure? That is my reasoning for believing that baptizm is not the factor that gets you into heaven, because so many things could play against the purity. I believe that if you are a believer, then you will be allowed into heaven. And i just want to let you know that i am not trying to offend anyone in any way, im just stating an opinion.
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Old 04-08-2005, 09:46 AM   #23
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Quote: (Originally Posted by rabidgopher04) In Baptism it is God who is doing the work. God is the one pouring out the grace, but of course it requires some human action.

Take the Bible - you could say that it is just a man-made set of texts. But reality is that God worked through the people who wrote them (hence divine inspiration) in order to communicate his message.

So in baptism someone needs to perform it, but it is truly God that is doing the real work. Man is not saving himself.

but that is still man having to save himself cause he has do some work in order to that. baptism is a symbolic showing of one's repentance and commitment but the act itself does NOTHING to save someone. it is a COMMANDED ordinance but it does not save anyone. only God only can justify a human soul according to the bible. higherdesire i'm not aware of any church that doesn't have baptism. however there are many churches which say that baptism does not form part of the salvation process. in fact there is no salvation process per se.
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Old 04-13-2005, 11:54 PM   #24
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Definition of Baptism according to the NIV: Christian sacrament; a ritual washing with water, symbolizing a cleansing of sin, linked with repentance and admission into the community of faith; symbolic for being filled with the Holy Spirit.
To start off I would like to say that I do not believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. It is only through God's grace that we can enter the kingdom of heaven. The rest of the things I write are not my own thoughts but the verses and commentary of my Life Application Bible.
Matthew 3:11, " I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
-Baptism was an outward sign of commitment. To be effective, it had to be accompanied by an inward change of attitude leading to a changed life-the work of the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:16, " Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved...
-It is not the water of baptism that saves, but God's grace accepted through faith in Christ. Because of Jesus's response to the criminal on the cross who died with him, we know it is possible to be saved without being baptized (Luke 23:43). Baptism alone, without faith, does not automatically bring a person to heaven. Those who refuse to believe will be condemned, regardless of whether or not they have been baptized.
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Old 04-15-2005, 10:55 PM   #25
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Interesting.

I must say that I really like the verses:

Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be saved"; cos its a really cool prophecy concerning that I think.

Also I was reading in Romans 10:9-13
...if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED....for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

I just love Romans.

I am baptized but yeh, I think I would have still gone to heaven if I died before I did, cos I had a true relationship with the Lord. I was even prophesying and stuff so He was deffinitely in my life.
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Old 04-15-2005, 11:37 PM   #26
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though: If U believe that the Holy Spirit is urging U 2 be baptised I say do it!

I dont think we should be disobedient to God in anything. I mean a man said to Jesus that He had done everything to follow him and Jesus said he had to let his fortune go and the man went away sad cos it was too hard to do. Dont let anything get in the way of following God 100% I recon.
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Old 05-08-2005, 10:33 AM   #27
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People seem rather confused on this issue. First, in true Protestant fashion, some have claimed Baptism is useless because it is a work. First, it is not really a work, it is an outpouring of Grace from God. Second, you might not believe works are important to Salvation, but that is another argument. Until you can prove that Salvation is obtained by proclaiming Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior (which the Bible never says, by the way), then you can't say Baptism is useless because it is a work.

"Baptism now saves you". I can't remember the exact verse (don't have my Bible with me) but it is in Acts, I suggest you read it. Obviously, there is the Nicodemus discussion, as well as plenty of other verses, I will find some later.

Some people have argued that God would not be cruel, and deny someone Heaven because they weren't baptized. Well there are different forms of Baptism. There is Baptism by water, the usual kind. There is Baptism by Desire, which is when you believe in God, want to be saved, but do not have the ability or knowledge or means to be baptized. There is also Baptism by Blood which is when you give your life for Christ, and you are immediately cleansed of all sin because There is no greater deed than giving one's life for Christ.

As for all of the verses pertaining to beliving in the Lord will save you: I couldn't agree more. You do indeed have to believe in the Lord. But Paul ALSO says elswhere that we are saved by Faith working through love, that he (Paul himself) is not yet "aquitted", and he was PAUL.

Sorry for lack of verses, I'll get more on this later.
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Old 05-09-2005, 12:28 AM   #28
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John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have everylasting life.

BUT WAIT! THERES MORE!!!!!

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through Him. (not fricken being dunked in water! Though it is a step!)

Whoever believes in Him is not condemned...

Praise God that we are not saved by works so nobody can boast.

I have to go to class now!!! I am sure I will be back.
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Old 05-09-2005, 02:33 AM   #29
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through Him. (not fricken being dunked in water! Though it is a step!)
Sure, but the process for initiation into the Christian community is baptism. Why else were all the people in the bible being baptized after they were taught Jesus' message? Not because it was some simple ordinance, but because that is what initiates someone into a relationship with God and the Church. Baptism is initial grace given by God to the baptized person.
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Old 05-09-2005, 10:03 AM   #30
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have everylasting life.

BUT WAIT! THERES MORE!!!!!

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through Him. (not fricken being dunked in water! Though it is a step!)

Whoever believes in Him is not condemned...

Praise God that we are not saved by works so nobody can boast.

I have to go to class now!!! I am sure I will be back.

Not fricken being dunked in water? Is that all you think Baptism is? Then no wonder you don't think its important. Baptism is an outpouring of Grace from God, completely cleaning the soul of Sin, including Original sin. Baptism is the only thing that can get rid of Original sin. Believing in Christ is obviously required (no point getting Baptized if you don't) but Jesus instituted Baptism for the purpose of being able to cleanse our souls. This is pre-figured by The Great Flood in the old Testament. God cleansed the world through the flood and Baptism does the same thing.

Jesus tells his Apostles to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (Mathew 28: 19). Why would he include Baptims in his farewall address, so to speak, if it was unimportant?

Mark 16: 16 "Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved". Once again, Baptism is associated with being saved by Jesus. It does not say "Whoever believes will be saved"--although that is obviously required--it says whoever believes and is baptized.

Obviously, the Nicodemus dicsussion where Jesus says "...no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit" John 3: 5. I would also point out that this in the SAME passage as the line you keep quoting. And by the way, Jesus did NOT come to condemn the world! He gave us Baptism! His Death on the Cross enabled us to be saved. He also chose the vessel of that saving to be Baptism--or at least, the beginning of it. Baptism is not the end, of course. To say that he is condemning the world by giving us Baptism is sheer ludicrosity!

"Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" Acts 2: 38. How can you possibly say Baptism does nothing when Peter is saying to be Baptized for the forgiveness of your sins?

"Now why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name" Acts 22: 16. Once again, Baptism is directly associated with the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 6: 1-4 is also very explicit, although it is too long, I don't have the time to type it out. I suggest you read it and then tell me you still believe Baptism to be a "fricken dunking in water"

"That is what some of you used to be, but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified..." 1 Cor 6: 11. Once again, sanctified and justified being associated with water and washing away of sins, i.e Baptism.

Titus 3: 5 "Not because of any righteous deeds we had done, but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" More Saving through washing.

In 1 Peter 3: 21, talking abut the great flood, Peter says "This prefigured baptism, which saves you now" How on earth can you claim, after reading Peter say that Baptism saves you, that Baptism means nothing?
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