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Old 05-21-2005, 10:49 PM   #61
Higher_Desire
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Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer) Condoms might not have been around forever but contraception has been.

Also, I am not saying I am going to change my mind: but I will if I believe you are correct. Granted, I do not believe you are correct, but I am trying to disprove you. You have not even dealt with the verses that say God and Jesus are the same. But that is your right. You don't have to change.
Oh my gosh! Do you even read your posts?! Do you even know what contraception is? Contraception IS birth control. And no, birth control has NOT been around forever. Not condoms, not the patch, not the pill, not the ring, not the diaphram, none of it. The only method which could even be considered as being around forever is coitus-interruptus (pulling out before ejaculation). Maybe you just need a lesson in the English language, as you're trying to defend yourself but don't seem to know words like "contraception" or "divine."

I know you're trying to disprove me. I'm trying to disprove you too.

Yes I have delt with the verses. You said I don't see the whole picture because I delt with them individually. If you're referring to such verses as John 17:11 or 17:21 which basically state "be one in me even as me and my father are one." If that is literal, it means that we will be God or be Jesus Christ. The 6.5 Billion people on the world right now, as well as all that have and will live on the earth will all be in one body. I don't think it works like that. What about Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 15:6 or John 8:41 which say we have ONE God, the Father of Jesus Christ.


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Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
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Old 05-21-2005, 10:58 PM   #62
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My Brother is a converted Moron.. opps I mean. Mormon. He says that Yes a planet is obtained for a MAN and I room is obtained for a LADY. Does that make sence?????? I don't think so. Moronism is just that... People who only place eyes on the Man because after all the MAN is the only important person...


Can you tell by my sarcasism that I'm a feminist... And a second thing, if there is a MORON LADY out there that "Claims" to be a feminist... she really isn't. Thank you Mrs. Ashland from Senior HS English Class. Damn Bitch!

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Old 05-21-2005, 11:08 PM   #63
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Quote: (Originally Posted by NakedSmurf) My Brother is a converted Moron.. opps I mean. Mormon. He says that Yes a planet is obtained for a MAN and I room is obtained for a LADY. Does that make sence?????? I don't think so. Moronism is just that... People who only place eyes on the Man because after all the MAN is the only important person...


Can you tell by my sarcasism that I'm a feminist... And a second thing, if there is a MORON LADY out there that "Claims" to be a feminist... she really isn't. Thank you Mrs. Ashland from Senior HS English Class. Damn Bitch!
My guess is that he hasn't been a member for very long. You should tell him to get more information from his Bishop and knowledgeable people in the church. What you posted of what he said kind of sounds like something that would be on the Internet. I, however, have been a member for over 18 years, so I think I know what's going on.

IMO, feminists are all full of quite a large amount of BS. "A mormon lady who claims to be feminist isn't" I have no idea what you're talking about.


H-D
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Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

Today I'm gonna love my enemies
Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
from their new album "Awake"
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Old 05-22-2005, 12:26 AM   #64
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all i have learned from this thread HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA It Sure Must Be One HECK OF A PLANENT No Arguments Would Should Be All In Favor
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Old 05-22-2005, 01:48 AM   #65
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Higher_desire,

First of all my brother has been a coverted mormon for the past 9 years (almost), His missionarie work took place in SLC. During his mission I vistited him and he tried to convert me (which didn't work obviously). During his mission he and his room mate would go to catholic and other churches and "take" as much literiture from the churches as they could find. Then go and meet up with other mormon missionaries and burn them for fun.

My brother, since his mission, still lives in SCL. He got married in THE Temple and IS an elder in the cult (oops I mean church) so I would say he knows what he is talking about. Also whan I was in SLC I spoke with other missionaries and they told me the same thing MEN GET PLANETS.

Now don't get me wrong some mormon people are nice and all but they tend to be very judgmental.

Now what the hell is this about marring and baptizing dead relitives to acending them in to the next level of heaven?? My brother baptized my (dead) Great-great Grandfather in to the cult (oops I mean faith) about 2 or3 years ago (creepy). So does that mean that I HAVE to put in my will that my brother can not marry or baptize me??
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Old 05-22-2005, 02:45 AM   #66
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Man, U thought I was harsh!
Quote: (Originally Posted by HD) I, however, have been a member for over 18 years, so I think I know what's going on.
U fricken dont though! Every other mormon on the planet (well, this one anyway) knows about this fricken stuff but you!
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Old 05-22-2005, 12:12 PM   #67
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) Oh my gosh! Do you even read your posts?! Do you even know what contraception is? Contraception IS birth control. And no, birth control has NOT been around forever. Not condoms, not the patch, not the pill, not the ring, not the diaphram, none of it. The only method which could even be considered as being around forever is coitus-interruptus (pulling out before ejaculation). Maybe you just need a lesson in the English language, as you're trying to defend yourself but don't seem to know words like "contraception" or "divine."

I know you're trying to disprove me. I'm trying to disprove you too.

Yes I have delt with the verses. You said I don't see the whole picture because I delt with them individually. If you're referring to such verses as John 17:11 or 17:21 which basically state "be one in me even as me and my father are one." If that is literal, it means that we will be God or be Jesus Christ. The 6.5 Billion people on the world right now, as well as all that have and will live on the earth will all be in one body. I don't think it works like that. What about Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 15:6 or John 8:41 which say we have ONE God, the Father of Jesus Christ.


H-D


You are just wrong. We haven't had "the pill" but their have always been ways of getting around fertility.

Also, arguing with you has gotten pointless. I specifically show you verses where Jesus says the Father is in Me and I am in the Father, and you still refuse to acknowledge it. Not to mention the ENTIRE EARLY CHURCH believed in the trinity, and that the first MAJOR heresy, Arianism, was considered a HUGE affront to Christianity because it DENIED CHRIST BEING THE SAME AS THE FATHER.
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Old 05-22-2005, 03:30 PM   #68
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Female Sexuality and the reproductive system has just been explored within the last 100 - 120 years (roughly) within the United States. Before that it was seen as dirty, etc. etc. Hell even in the Bible it has said that 7 days after a women has her period that it's unclean for her to engage in sexual activity or even to touch food (especially meat). Leviticus 19.

Now, I know about female sexuality and the reproductive system. First of all I AM a Lady and Second of all I'm currently 8 months Prego with our 2nd child.

Before the creation of Birth control there really wasn't any other method within the US other than NOT HAVING SEX. Why do you think so many women in the 70s risked there life to have abortions and in term they themselves died from infection or a "botch job". Before it was pretty much the pull out method or the rhythm method. For the longest time women who were not married thought that just by kissing a guy, they would become Prego.

Information taken from: The History of the Birth Control Movement-US Information ONLY--
"Sanger helped organize (1917) the National Birth Control League in the United States; in 1921 it became the American Birth Control League, and in 1942 the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Meanwhile, in 1918 an American judge ruled that contraceptive devices were legal as instruments for the prevention of disease, and the federal law prohibiting dissemination of contraceptive information through the mails was modified in 1936. Throughout the 1940s and 50s, birth control advocates were engaged in numerous legal suits. In 1965 the U.S. Supreme Court struck down the one remaining state law (in Connecticut) prohibiting the use of contraceptives.

The federal government began to take a more active part in the birth control movement in 1967, when 6% of the funds allotted to the Child Health Act was set aside for family planning; in 1970, the Family Planning Services and Population Act established separate funds for birth control. Birth control and sex education in schools continue to be emotional issues in the United States, where adolescent sexual activity and pregnancy rates are high and bring with them increased risks of sexually transmitted diseases and complications of pregnancy, as well as societal and personal costs."

When it comes to actual contraceptive methods ---
Information taken from: Methods of Birth Control---
"Male birth control methods include withdrawal of the male before ejaculation (the oldest contraceptive technique) and use of the condom, a rubber sheath covering the penis. The condom, because of its use as a protection against sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS, has become a frequently used birth control device.

Contraceptive methods for women include the rhythm method—abstinence around the most likely time of ovulation—and precoital insertion into the vagina of substances (creams, foams, jellies, or suppositories) containing spermicidal chemicals. The use of a diaphragm, a rubber cup-shaped device inserted before intercourse, prevents sperm from reaching the uterine cervix; it is usually used with a spermicide. Contraceptive sponges, which are impregnated with a spermicide, also are inserted into the vagina before intercourse and work primarily by acting as a barrier to the sperm. Intrauterine devices, or IUDs, are variously shaped small objects inserted by a doctor into the uterus; they apparently act by creating a uterine environment hostile either to sperm or to the fertilized egg. The birth control pill, an oral contraceptive, involves a hormonal method in which estrogen and progestins (progesteronelike substances) are taken cyclically for 21 or 84 days, followed by 7 days of inactive or no pills. The elevated levels of hormones in the blood suppress production of the pituitary hormones (luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone) that would ordinarily cause ovulation.

Sterilization of the female, often but not always performed during a Cesarean section or shortly after childbirth, consists of cutting or tying both Fallopian tubes, the vessels that carry the egg cells from the ovaries to the uterus. In male sterilization (vasectomy) the vas deferens, the tubes that carry sperm from the testes to the penis, are interrupted. Sterilization, in most cases irreversible, involves no loss of libido or capacity for sex.

No contraceptive yet devised is at once simple, acceptable, safe, effective, and reversible. Some, such as the diaphragm, condom, and chemical and rhythm methods, require high motivation by users; the pill, which must be taken daily, sometimes induces undesirable side effects, such as nausea, headache, weight gain, and increased tendency to develop blood clots. The IUDs, although requiring no personal effort or motivation, are often not tolerated or are expelled, and they sometimes, particularly if poorly designed, cause uterine infection, septic abortion, and other problems.

New birth control techniques, some still experimental, include the use of progestins that can be given by injection every three months; progestins embedded in inert carriers and implanted under the skin to release the hormones slowly and continuously; progestins incorporated into a plastic ring that a woman could insert in the vagina and would need to change only periodically; and IUDs carrying an antifertility agent. If birth control fails (or is not used), doctors may prescribe several large doses of certain oral contraceptives as “morning after” pills; the high level of hormones can inhibit the establishment of pregnancy even if fertilization has taken place. Mifepristone, or RU-486, the so-called abortion pill, is effective within seven weeks after conception and requires close medical supervision. It was first approved in Europe and was tested in the mid-1990s in United States, where it was approved in 2000. Another experimental technique is immunization against human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG), a hormone secreted by a developing fertilized egg that stimulates production of progesterone by the ovary; the effect of the anti-HCG antibody would be to inactivate HCG and thereby induce menstruation even if fertilization occurred."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The XY Factor on the History Channell has a very good documentary on the History of Sex. It's a good watch. There is a movie that just came out with some interest to me as well. Look for a Movie called --- Kinsey (2004) it stars Liam Neeson as Alfred Kinsey. Plot Summary for Kinsey (2004)
---------------------------------------------------------
Life story of Alfred Kinsey, a man driven to uncover the most private secrets of the nation, and a journey into the mystery of human behavior. In 1948 Kinsey irrevocably changed American culture and created a media sensation with his book "Sexual Behavior in the Human Male". Using the technique of his own famous sex interviews, story recounts the scientist's extraordinary journey from obscurity to global fame. Rebelling against the rigid piety of his home life, and drawn to the world of the senses, Kinsey becomes a Harvard-educated zoologist specializing in the study of gall wasps. After being hired to teach biology at Indiana University, Kinsey meets and marries a witty, freethinking female student, Clara McMillen. In the course of his teaching he discovers an astonishing dearth of scientific data on sexual behavior. When students seek him out for advice about sexual concerns and problems, he realizes that no one has done the clinical research that would yield reliable answers to their questions. Inspired to explore the emotionally charged subject of sex from a strictly scientific point of view, Kinsey recruits a team of researchers, including Clyde Martin, Wardell Pomeroy and Paul Gebhard. Over time they refine an interviewing technique, which helps people to break through shame, fear, and guilt and speak freely about their sexual histories. When Kinsey publishes his Male study in 1948, the press compares the impact to that of the atom bomb. But as the country enters the more paranoid Cold War era of the 1950s, Kinsey's follow-up study on women is seen as an attack on basic American values. The ensuing outrage and scorn causes Kinsey's benefactors to abandon him, just as his health begins to deteriorate. At the same time, the jealousies and acrimony caused by Kinsey's attempt to create a private sexual utopia threaten to tear apart the research team and expose them to unwelcome scrutiny.
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Old 05-22-2005, 03:34 PM   #69
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The whole stopping before ejaculation thing is very old INDEED, going back to the earliest periods of mankind.

That was my point. Christian Churches, except for Catholicism, all CHANGED their opinion on contraception because they bowed to political and social pressure, not because suddenly God changed his mind and decided He had been wrong to outlaw contraception.

But this has very little to do with Mormonism anyway.
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Old 05-22-2005, 04:17 PM   #70
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This is idiotic. You all seem to be nitpicking about the truthfulness of the church because of one little argument. Sincirr, you say everyone knows this stuff but me. I have put in many hours of study on a ton different topics on my church. I know more about it then you could ever hope to. Uncertaindrumer, I have looked at those passages and I'm not ignoring them. I've answerd them. You just seem to ignore every one that I've posted that say they're not the same person. If "every church" changed their beliefs (which not ALL of them did) and bowed to social forces, it is because they are not the truth. We have had the same stance on the topic as always. Naked Smurf, you seem to just want to claim your brother knows everything because he was a missionary and you just take what he tells you. I don't care if he burned other churches pamplets for fun. People have fun doing different things.

If by 'the doctrine of the Trinity' one means the New Testament teaching that there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost, all three of whom are fully divine, then Latter-day Saints believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. It is as simple as that. The Latter-day Saints' first article of faith, written by Joseph Smith in 1842, states, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost....However, if by "the doctrine of the Trinity" one means the doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon and elaborated upon by subsequent theologians and councils--that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence--then Latter-day Saints do not believe it. They do not believe it, because it is not biblical. Words central to the orthodox understanding of the Trinity --words like coequal, consubstantial, and circumincession, or the word trinity itself, for that matter--are not found in scripture.

I'm annoyed with everyone in this thread saying that I'm wrong but not listening to why I'm right. At least I'm listining to your arguments. I don't care what you believe about me. I don't care what you believe about my faith. The only way to know the truth for sure is to wait for Jesus to come back to earth and see which church he selects as his. The misconception of us getting our own planet originally came from something Lorenzo Snow said when he said "As man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become" (June 1840). It has since been changed by people to mean whatever they want it to mean.

I'm sick of this thread. I'm sick of what all of you are saying and judgements you are making. I'm done with this thread. Please do not try to have a conversation with me if you're not willing to listen. If you're willing to listen and interact as adults, then I'll answer any questions you may have.

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."


H-D
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Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

Today I'm gonna love my enemies
Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
from their new album "Awake"
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Old 05-22-2005, 04:29 PM   #71
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) Naked Smurf, you seem to just want to claim your brother knows everything because he was a missionary and you just take what he tells you. I don't care if he burned other churches pamplets for fun. People have fun doing different things.


Who cares about my brother, he is his own person and I personally think he's is an idiot. JUST MY OWN OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm just saying that this is what he has told me and Other Missionaries told me when I was in SLC visiting my brother when he was on his mission. Maybe you should stop pointing your finger and ask for why people that are doing missions for your "faith" are telling what you say are lies. Also, shouldn't you be concerned that some Mormon missionaries are burning other religious books of other faiths and calling it, "FUN!" That would concern me.
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Old 05-22-2005, 04:33 PM   #72
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) I'm sick of this thread. I'm sick of what all of you are saying and judgements you are making. I'm done with this thread. Please do not try to have a conversation with me if you're not willing to listen. If you're willing to listen and interact as adults, then I'll answer any questions you may have.


Now I did ask you a question in one of my posts, true there is some sarcasm in it, but it's still a real question for which I was asking.

"Now what the hell is this about marring and baptizing dead relatives to ascending them in to the next level of heaven?? My brother baptized my (dead) Great-great Grandfather in to the cult (oops I mean faith) about 2 or 3 years ago (creepy). So does that mean that I HAVE to put in my will that my brother can not marry or baptize me??"
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Old 05-22-2005, 05:13 PM   #73
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Point of order here Joseph smith was an alcoholic and a convicted con-man who combined free masonry with christianity and came up with mormomism in fact the free masons had a bounty on his hear for the rest of his life. I don't know how or why people have allowed themselves to be dupped by this compleated bullshit of a cult
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Old 05-22-2005, 05:50 PM   #74
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Actually, the Trinity is the ONLY Biblical explenation for the many passages I stated, but if you don't want to believe it, fine.
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:36 AM   #75
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Quote: Sincirr, you say everyone knows this stuff but me. I have put in many hours of study on a ton different topics on my church. I know more about it then you could ever hope to.

Look HD, there is just something wrong here. Its either that #1, U have read about the planet thing and refuse to believe what U read, #2, havent learned about it yet cos it is a secret only revealed to ones that come under elder status, or #3, U know but you are lying your ass off. You tell me to actually have a talk to one of your mormon friends and I do and STILL you are not satisfied. Why dont YOU talk to one of them!
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