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Old 01-29-2004, 12:00 AM   #121
bgivens33
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Prs4me) Quote:I usually leave these threads alone...cause I tend to be more liberal than most, but.....

Not that long ago left handed people were persecuted as being of Satan.
Now of course we know that being left handed, right handed or ambidextrous is just a part of brain function...nothing more, nothing less.

Sexual orientation is the same thing. I'm hoping someday science will be able to prove (it's already done this..but I guess it's still too complex for most to understand. ) in an easily understood way...how this is all just a matter of brain function. Till then, I just hope most people live and let live.
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I could be wrong but isnt that like saying God messed up when He created man. IMHO science will never prove that homosexuality is in the "genes".
If anything they will label it as hereditary only because they can not explan it.
God would not create something, then say what He had created sinful.
Just a thought.


Sooooo..... man was not created as sinners????
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Old 01-29-2004, 12:09 AM   #122
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Quote: (Originally Posted by hide) 2 Timohty 3:16 the bible claims to be inspired by God, and if you say that is rubbish then hell we'll just invent our own God then! There are areas open to interpretation but this is not one of them, its black and white!

But, the entire Bible was written by man. It's not like man wrote the bible and at the very end God puts a disclaimer... "It looks good to me". Man included that part as well. You have to be careful taking the Bible to literally. The most important part of the Bible is not what is right and wrong, but the way Jesus lived his life. That's what is the difference between real Christians(literally interpreted as "one who follows Christ") and other "Christians", the ones who are more interested in saving than serving. And I myself, am neither.



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Old 01-29-2004, 12:46 AM   #123
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This WILL upset some of U. But Christians believe the bible to be the word of God, so I need to show U some stuff and U can have it out with each other after. Please at least read the section about the pagan practices if U dont wana read the rest.

Here is a verse talking about the practice of homosexuality. This verse was not only written by man but by moses who got it from God:
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death. Their blood will be on their own heads.

WAIT!
Let me finnish...

In the same writing, God says:
Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

God was serious about the practice of homosexuality, heterosexuality (If a man commits adultery with another man's wife....both...must be put to death;Lev20:10), but he was serious about the practice of other things as well, including mistreating people and being deceptive. I am a Christian, but I am bloody guilty of cursing my mother. We have issues that span way back that provoke it that are none of anyone's business here, but the point is:

I SHOULD BE DESTROYED! IT SAYS SO RIGHT THERE!!!!
Same punnishment as the men that had that intimate encounter of sorts...

THANKS TO CHRIST!!! I SHOULD BE DEAD ON THE SPOT, BUT BECAUSE OF HIS GRACE!!!!!!!! I AM ABLE TO HAVE LIFE TO THE FULL, AND ETERNAL LIFE WITH HIM!
(of course I also have a chance to make things right with my mother)

ALSO!
The practices that the Lord is refering to in this passage were related to the pagan religions practices mostly, who did all sorts of sexual acts to appease their gods. It was said that a sexual orgy would bring rain in Egypt, and the rain would signify the...ehem...gods excitement...if u get me. No its true.


God didnt like what these people would get up to in the name of their gods and he didnt want his people behaving the same. That is the most practical way to explain this verse.

I'm sure this is gonna bring up controversy, but at least we actually read a verse for once and really looked at. Sorry if I offended anyone too much.

Have your shot.
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Old 01-29-2004, 01:16 AM   #124
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) Sorry if I offended anyone too much.
Have your shot.

I am not touching that with a ten foot burning bush!
Sincirr, what happened with our topic on LOVE?! Heck, does'nt it say something in the bible about ..and the greatest of these is Love? And, aren;t there any people out there that believe in metaphors? Metaphysical intepretations? Wasn't the bible was written in Aramaic in an Agrarian male dominated culture hundreds of years later.
Alas, One God, many Paths..and King James is just one river to the Ocean, and what a narrow river with many rapids it can be.

"All religions, all this singing, is one song.
The differences are just illusion and vanity.
The sun's light looks a little different on this wall than it does on that wall...
but it's all still one light.
" - Rumi

Last edited by souldancer : 01-29-2004 at 02:12 AM.
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Old 01-29-2004, 04:32 AM   #125
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okay so we are clear that the Bible teaches clearly that God detests homosexuality? Like any other sin those who practise homosexuals are unrepenant sinners and then are clearly not fit to lead God's people. That many of them are leaders in today's churches is a very sad situation. That many of them prey on young boys is even worse.
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Old 01-29-2004, 04:38 AM   #126
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before anyone replies i urge you to read this first!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...n1_homosex.asp
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Old 01-29-2004, 05:40 AM   #127
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Quote:
Sooooo..... man was not created as sinners????


Man was not created sinners, we were created with free will.
Sin didnt enter the world until man made the wrong choice.
Sin then became a part of every person after.
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Old 01-29-2004, 11:00 AM   #128
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Quote: (Originally Posted by souldancer) "All religions, all this singing, is one song.
The differences are just illusion and vanity.
The sun's light looks a little different on this wall than it does on that wall...
but it's all still one light.
" - Rumi
Sorry, but there is something in the bible about even satan appearing as an angel of light. In light of that verse, I examine all light comin at me. It's just an instinct.

No offence, but I am a Christian and the bible is my book. I simply posted what hide was refering to in my book, and made an attempt at deciphering it. I think historically I didnt do the worst job.

I also recall that our conversation spoke of us all being on a journey to understand true love and though I dont agree with all U or even Hide says, I still consider what U say, cos I am learning along the way.

Thanks for your opinion though. You are a very smart and passionate person, who truly loves people. I can see that by what U post. Sorry to cause any grief.

Please dont hate me.
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Old 01-29-2004, 12:16 PM   #129
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I don't hate you, I just don't share your beliefs. As SD said, one God, many paths. You are free to believe what you believe, but to dismiss the entire rest of the world that doesn't share your beliefs makes me sad, frustrated and angry. Sorry to offend, but that's what I believe.
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Old 01-29-2004, 12:28 PM   #130
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Prs4me) Quote:
Sooooo..... man was not created as sinners????


Man was not created sinners, we were created with free will.
Sin didnt enter the world until man made the wrong choice.
Sin then became a part of every person after.


Not to open up a pre-destination debate... but, I was born a sinner. I had no choice but to sin. The whole, "man chose to become sinners" just doesn't hold water to me. God knew we were going to sin. He created us that way. God was not suprised when Eve sinned(Adam was just in the wrong place at the wrong time). Man never stood a chance to live a sinless life. Now, I don't know if homosexuality is something you are born with, but I give them the benefit of the doubt. If they say they are born with it, than who am I to argue with them? It's not like homosexuality is an easier lifestyle for them. I just don't think in the whole grand scheme of things, homosexuality is that big of a deal. And, even more importantly, it's between them and God.
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Old 01-29-2004, 12:53 PM   #131
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Boy....this thread can really stir up one's passions. As I've said in the past...I'm very liberal (about some things..not all things).
Science has proven that their are certain differences in the brain function of homosexuals than heterosexuals...I suppose I should go track down the latest findings and post a link. . Will have to do this one of these days.
As for the Bible...um,,,yes, MAN wrote it. Inspired by God, as told by God..whatever, but the bottom line is..Man wrote it. It didn't just show up one day all written out. It was created over many, many years. Did you ever look at how many different versions there are of it? Interesting...and who do you think wrote all these different versiosn with all their different points of view?
Most of it is also written in parable form..or stories. Not facts and rules laid out..but parables. Stories... which are open to interpretation. Kind of like how we all interpret Stapp's lyrics differently. Not wrong...just different.
I don't hate anyone and certainly don't mind other opinions which differ from mine. I also am not trying to RAM my beliefs down anyone's throat, and telling them they are wrong or going to hell if they don't agree with me. Infact , I've actually said precious little of what my actual beliefs are..aside from the whole Homosexuality issue. I just don't understand why some people feel it's their business to judge others who are hurting no one. (oh..and pediphiles are usually NOT gay...just really sick!!! Many are married men..to women..who are sickos) I've many gay friends who are excellent citizens, do loads of volunteer work, are quite religious, and who ,are overall warm, friendly, wonderful people. Why do people feel the need to harass, vilify and malign these people? Why make them out to be scary, evil creatures? We are all just people doing our best to love and be loved. Who cares how, as long as it's love and both parties are of age and sound mind.
I just hope that none of you (you = anti gays) ever ever have a gay son or daughter. If you did? What would you do? Cast them out? I sure hope not.
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Old 01-29-2004, 01:13 PM   #132
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Yeh, I'm sorry the verses caused so much trouble. I knew that they would piss people off, but I really wanted to point out that people are pointing at gays as being bad, but something as simple as cursing your parents was thought of as just as bad. I also wanted to point out that if someone who was gay believed that the bible was the word of God, could see that in Christ there is no condemnation.

I have a good friend and her son gets picked on at school and called gay. What njcreedite said about having a son that turned out to be gay is something i have thought about with this guy, cos the family are christians right, but what if he is? I cant be saying stuff against it cos he will think it applies to him personally where his relationship with God is concerned if he ends up coming out, and I would hate to think that I have put him in a position where I have made him feel that God is inacessible to him.

This is something I am grappling with, as well as many others here. I appreciate what has been said, and am sorry again for pissing people off. I'm on learner plates.
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Old 01-29-2004, 10:33 PM   #133
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Quote: (Originally Posted by hide) okay so we are clear that the Bible teaches clearly that God detests homosexuality? Like any other sin those who practise homosexuals are unrepenant sinners and then are clearly not fit to lead God's people. That many of them are leaders in today's churches is a very sad situation. That many of them prey on young boys is even worse.
Hide.. Clear about what?

Sincirr. - don;t hate you at all! Just hope you don't have any gay children.

OK, this will be my last reply to this thread (well, perhaps...but then, as I woman I am fickel..and just who is responsible for that? I keep hearing alot about God created man...man this and that..)

Including some text below from a web site I had bookmarked awhile ago..Nothing is 'validated' (whatever that means), as I don't use the Bible religiously....but, it brings up interesting points...and I believe that Critical Thinking, Rationality and Creativity, along with Free Will are wonderful gifts God has given us.
________

The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus. Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others.

Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! Why do you think that most people don't know about them?

Read Leviticus 23 to see the detailed regulations concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day and demands of animal sacrifices to be carried out according to exact instructions. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself." Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are demanded equally with all the others.

Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?

The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses.

Read what Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5 about hypocrites who judge others. "Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves... Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...You hypocrite!"

If you have been led to misuse Leviticus and other parts of the Bible in order to condemn and hate and reject people, you are on the wrong path. Jesus quoted only one passage from Leviticus: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (19:18).
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Old 01-29-2004, 10:53 PM   #134
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I have a cousin that is gay and I love him to death It doesn't bother me at all really. I love him the way he is I don't agree with his lifestyle but its not my place to judge!

Hi there souldancer
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Old 01-29-2004, 11:38 PM   #135
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we can throw our opinions to and fro until the end of days but the scriptures are very clear on the issue!
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