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Old 10-06-2004, 06:49 PM   #16
I'mRational
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Quote: (Originally Posted by handmedown) cool...
this is a touchy subject and is a very subjective question. who's view of christianality is correct? can one be a christian if they deny basic biblical principles such as christ being the only saviour and all else are unsaved?

Christ being the one and only savior is super-basic Christian belief. Now, 'Christian' can be used is myriad of ways. Some were raised Christian but don't pay attention to Christianity now, or believe the basic tenets. Yet, these people will call themselves Christian. Now, would I call these kinds of people by the term 'Christian'? I'd say no because they reject basic Christian belief.

I guess we should clarify some things before any discussion goes further. What some people mean by 'real Christians' is that there is an acceptance of the basic beliefs such as, Christ is your one and only savior, he is God incarnate, part of the trinity, etc., but we should understand that what is written here is not exhustive. Also, some people use the term 'real Christian' synonomously with 'born again Christian'. This is what JesusFreak could mean, but i don't want to put words into his mouth (by the way, is the screen name a ref. to DC Talk?).

Now, what do the band members believe? I have no clue, except for a few snippets of comments. i'd have to talk to the guys to know if they are or not.
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Old 10-06-2004, 07:20 PM   #17
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Quote: (Originally Posted by I'mRational) Christ being the one and only savior is super-basic Christian belief. Now, 'Christian' can be used is myriad of ways. Some were raised Christian but don't pay attention to Christianity now, or believe the basic tenets. Yet, these people will call themselves Christian. Now, would I call these kinds of people by the term 'Christian'? I'd say no because they reject basic Christian belief.

I guess we should clarify some things before any discussion goes further. What some people mean by 'real Christians' is that there is an acceptance of the basic beliefs such as, Christ is your one and only savior, he is God incarnate, part of the trinity, etc., but we should understand that what is written here is not exhustive. Also, some people use the term 'real Christian' synonomously with 'born again Christian'. This is what JesusFreak could mean, but i don't want to put words into his mouth (by the way, is the screen name a ref. to DC Talk?).



Now, what do the band members believe? I have no clue, except for a few snippets of comments. i'd have to talk to the guys to know if they are or not.


i would agree with this and that if someone denies the basic tenents of a religion then they are not followers of that religion. however its very hard for us as fans to sit back and decide the eternal resting place for the members of
florida's most rocking band. we then also have groups such as the jehovah's witnesses and the mormons who would claim to be the only true church and yet they deny basic biblical tenents at least according to evanglical teachings. lots of people grow up surrounded by religion and yet its highly doubtful they ever found a faith of their own. this could go on forever......
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Old 10-07-2004, 12:10 PM   #18
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Ok, let's get this straight here.

1. Christianity in itself is not a religion. It is a basic belief structure of people that believe in Christ. Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Lutherns, Jehovas, Episcapallians, Menonites, blah, blah, blah..... are all Christians in the sense of the idea that they believe in Christ. Yet not one of them is the same religion. They share basic fundamentals.

2. My opinion of this is that if you believe in Christ, you are a Christian. I grew up Catholic but I do not practice the Catholic religion or any other organized religion for that matter. I don't believe that I need a guy with a big hat telling me what I can and cannot eat on Friday's during Lent and if I don't follow his diet I am a sinner and need to go and confess it to him. I beleive that if you find peace with yourself and with God through other means than you are just as much of a Christian as someone whom goes to church once a week and donates to the air conditioning fund. If you live by Christ's teaching then you are a Christian.
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Old 10-07-2004, 02:06 PM   #19
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Quote: (Originally Posted by kariyanine) Ok, let's get this straight here.

1. Christianity in itself is not a religion. It is a basic belief structure of people that believe in Christ. Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Lutherns, Jehovas, Episcapallians, Menonites, blah, blah, blah..... are all Christians in the sense of the idea that they believe in Christ. Yet not one of them is the same religion. They share basic fundamentals.

This probably belongs in the Religion section, but here goes.

I think you're mistaken. Christianity in itself is a Religion. The Religion of Christianity, is taught in schools and colleges all across the nation, in the context of a World's Religion class. Within the Religion of Christianity, there are 2 Christian Religions.

1.) Roman Catholicism

2.) Protestant

There are 2 Christian Bibles. The Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible. The difference between the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible is in the origin of translation, each coming from 2 different ancient texts in 2 different ancient languages.

*Within the Protestant Religion, there are many different sects, called Denominations (Episcopalians, Mennonites, Methodists, etc...), which arose out of differing interpretations of the Protestant Bible. However , ALL Protestants use the SAME Protestant Bible as their point of reference for their beliefs. Different interpretations of the same Bible does not constitute a separate Religion.

Catholics on the other hand, use the Catholic Bible as their point of reference for their beliefs, which in fact does make it a separate Religion...which is why, there are 2 Christian Religions -- Catholic and Protestant.

Quote: 2. My opinion of this is that if you believe in Christ, you are a Christian. I grew up Catholic but I do not practice the Catholic religion or any other organized religion for that matter. I don't believe that I need a guy with a big hat telling me what I can and cannot eat on Friday's during Lent and if I don't follow his diet I am a sinner and need to go and confess it to him. I beleive that if you find peace with yourself and with God through other means than you are just as much of a Christian as someone whom goes to church once a week and donates to the air conditioning fund. If you live by Christ's teaching then you are a Christian.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this statement, what you mean by what you're saying, is that you believe you are a Christian, but that you do not believe in organized Religion?

That may be what you believe, but from a historical perspective...meaning, the actual history of how the Religion of Christianity came to be (of which you are extracting your personal beliefs from), Christianity in itself was, and still remains a Religion.

Last edited by Disillusioned : 10-07-2004 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 10-07-2004, 02:26 PM   #20
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How can somebody say he's a christian and make Jesus a liar?
Jesus said no man comes to the father except through him.I wonder, what do people not understand about this? No man means no man.
It's not that hard to understand.
If somebody has little knowledge of sin and how sin was dealt with in the Old Testament knows that blood has to be shed to forgive or cover sin. In the OT animals had to be sacrificed. There is no other way to be forgiven! I don't care if this is politically correct or if muslims or buddhist accuse me of being intolerant!
There is only 1 way! If there were other ways Jesus would not have died this terrible death! In the garden Jesus prayed to the Father if there was another way. There was no other way! That is the bottom line.
People which lived on this earth and have never ever heard of Jesus and had no chance to accept him will be judged according to how they obey their conscience. Every humans knows right from wrong.
But there are not many people on this earth which have not heard of Jesus. Muslims know him, buddhists know him. They all know him.

If Mark believes that also buddhists make it to heaven then he does not read the bible. I think some people are scared of taking a stand and saying how it is. You cannot be friends with the world. The world hates the truth.
Nobody has a problem with Jesus, the wise man, or Jesus, the wise teacher.
But as soon as it comes to Jesus the Son of God you have the whole world against you.

Last edited by Jesusfreak : 10-07-2004 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 10-07-2004, 05:29 PM   #21
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Jesusfreak) How can somebody say he's a christian and make Jesus a liar?
Jesus said no man comes to the father except through him.I wonder, what do people not understand about this? No man means no man.
It's not that hard to understand.
If somebody has little knowledge of sin and how sin was dealt with in the Old Testament knows that blood has to be shed to forgive or cover sin. In the OT animals had to be sacrificed. There is no other way to be forgiven! I don't care if this is politically correct or if muslims or buddhist accuse me of being intolerant!
There is only 1 way! If there were other ways Jesus would not have died this terrible death! In the garden Jesus prayed to the Father if there was another way. There was no other way! That is the bottom line.
People which lived on this earth and have never ever heard of Jesus and had no chance to accept him will be judged according to how they obey their conscience. Every humans knows right from wrong.
But there are not many people on this earth which have not heard of Jesus. Muslims know him, buddhists know him. They all know him.

If Mark believes that also buddhists make it to heaven then he does not read the bible. I think some people are scared of taking a stand and saying how it is. You cannot be friends with the world. The world hates the truth.
Nobody has a problem with Jesus, the wise man, or Jesus, the wise teacher.
But as soon as it comes to Jesus the Son of God you have the whole world against you.
On a personal level, I agee with what you have said. However, consider this...

What is the basis for a person's salvation, ultimately? Is it not singular? In otherwords, redemption is an individual choice made between a person and God. When I stand before God to give an account for my life, where will you be? You will not be there and neither will anyone else, because ultimately, when I stand before God, it will be on the basis of my own salvation...my salvation is based on whether or not I believe in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ for MY sin.

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter what Mark believes about the salvation of the Buddhist...Mark isn't God, and when it's all said and done, Mark isn't who the Buddhist will be answering to. I happen to believe Mark is wrong and/or blind, but I wouldn't go so far as to presume to know what his personal relationship with God is...as in, is he a Christian or not? What I can say, is that Mark has called himself a Christian.

That said, I do think we are accountable for what we believe apart from personal salvation, and I absolutely believe that we will, one day, answer to God for the words we have spoken.

I know nothing. I may know what I believe, and I may believe it with all of my heart...but it is still only what I believe to know, and not what I know.

Last edited by Disillusioned : 10-07-2004 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 10-07-2004, 05:46 PM   #22
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If Mark believes in Jesus and is born again then he is a christian.
He can be a christian and still be wrong about Jesus being the only way to be saved, this might be possible, but it's strange. The bible makes it clear.
If Mark is a born again christian then it's cool. I would be happy to hear he is a born again christian.
I am also happy to hear that Stapp is a christian.
I was never really sure about Stapp cause on the Creed website it also said something like "who are we to say that only christians will be saved..." and this stuff was written in the name of Stapp. But Stapp did never write this. Somebody else did and put it on the homepage. Stapp was not even aware of it.
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Old 10-08-2004, 06:54 PM   #23
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Scott wasn't a Chrisitan... He have said "I don't really know, man", for years... But now he is.

And no, I don't think Mark believes in the bible!
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Old 10-08-2004, 06:58 PM   #24
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Lith, read my previous post about a q&a from Mark.
BTW Lith, the hat I bought at the concert, it's too small. It's about an inch shorter than my Creed one, and it's really thin, so beware.+

Ahh, but I forgot to mention, I have a LOT of hair, so that might be why.
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Old 10-08-2004, 07:59 PM   #25
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Quote: (Originally Posted by kariyanine) Ok, let's get this straight here.

1. Christianity in itself is not a religion. It is a basic belief structure of people that believe in Christ. Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Lutherns, Jehovas, Episcapallians, Menonites, blah, blah, blah..... are all Christians in the sense of the idea that they believe in Christ. Yet not one of them is the same religion. They share basic fundamentals.

Mormons do not have the same basic beliefs of Christ.
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Old 10-09-2004, 07:04 PM   #26
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Quote: (Originally Posted by crest tattoo) Lith, read my previous post about a q&a from Mark.
BTW Lith, the hat I bought at the concert, it's too small. It's about an inch shorter than my Creed one, and it's really thin, so beware.+

Ahh, but I forgot to mention, I have a LOT of hair, so that might be why.
Where's that post?
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Old 10-11-2004, 09:17 AM   #27
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Lith, page one of this thread:

Quote: thought this might help answer your question. It's on Alterbridge's home page, under "Band."
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Old 10-11-2004, 09:18 AM   #28
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Lith, page one of this thread:

Quote: thought this might help answer your question. It's on Alterbridge's home page, under "Band."

8) Question:
Are the band and album spiritual? Did you try to go in a more secular direction? How different will it be lyrically? The album is entitled ONE DAY REMAINS Ė that seems spiritual.

Flip:
Itís not super spiritual, but the band members are all spiritual. Spirituality will always be a part of who we are but the albumís more about life experiences. You can take from it what you will but itís not an agenda of ours. There was no difference in opinion between Tremonti and Stapp when it came to the direction of Creedís message. Weíre not trying to be secular or spiritual; we just want to express positivity in our lives.

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Hoorah for a child that makes it through if there's any way because the answer lies in you.
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Old 10-11-2004, 01:52 PM   #29
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Yeah, I read that some time ago, thanks for re-freshing my mind!
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