[dario]

Ok, there are a lot of things that I want to respond to, but my mind is getting jumbled. So I'm going to focus on one thing for now. This might get long, and so I apologize for that. First things first.


"But why don't YOU explain to me how works cannot be necessary, when "Faith without works is dead"? "

I will try to explain to you as best I can why I believe that works are not necessary for salvation. I am going to use verses from the bible and then include commentary on the verse. Now I know you don't agree with my bible's commentary, but I believe that it is accurate.

James 2:14-"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?"

-When someone claims to have faith, what he or she may have is intellectual assent-aggreement with a set of Christian teachings-and as such it would be incomplete faith. True faith transforms our conduct as well as our thoughts. If our lives remain unchanged, we don't truly believe the truths we claim to believe.

What I think James is saying is that if works aren't a natural product of faith then it's not real faith. It is basically just a knowledge of Christian teachings and thats all. The last thing he says in that verse is, 'can such faith save him?' No, it cannot because its not true faith.

James 2:17-"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

-We cannot earn our salvation by serving and obeying God. But such actions show that our commitment to God is real. Deeds of loving service are not a substitute for, but rather a verification of our faith in Christ.

James 2:18-"But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

-At first glance, this verse seems to contradict Romans 3:28, 'man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.' Deeper investigation, however, shows that the teachings of James and Paul are not at odds. While it is true that our good deeds can never earn salvation, true faith always results in a changed life and good deeds. Paul speaks against those who try to be saved by deeds instead of true faith; James speaks against those who confuse mere intellectual assent with true faith. True faith involves a commitment of your whole self to God.

Ok, there is my explanation of the verses you used out of James. You ask how can works not be necessary for salvation. Yes, faith without works is dead, we see that James says this. But then we also see Paul saying the very opposite. How do you explain this? Just ignore Paul's teachings and say, 'yes, James has it right.' I believe that the explanation I have above clears that up. You may disagree. If so, I would like to hear your reasonings.

Galatians 2:16-"know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

-If observing the Jewish laws cannot justify us, why should we still obey the 10 Commandments and other Old Testament laws? We know that Paul was not saying the law is bad, because in another letter he wrote, 'The law is holy' (Romans 7:12). Instead, he is saying that the law can never make us acceptable to God. The law still has an important role to play in the life of a Christian. The law: (1) guards us from sin by giving us standards for behavior; (2) convicts us of sin, leaving us the opportunity to ask for God's forgiveness; (3) drives us to trust in the sufficiency of Christ, because we can never keep the 10 Commandments perfectly. The law cannot possibly save us. But after we have become Christians, it can guide us to live as God requires.


"Dario, you seem amazed that I believe commiting adultery would lose Salvation for you. Why? If we don't need to keep the Commandments, or worry about sinning, then what do you mean?"

First of all, I didn't say that we shouldn't keep the commandments, or worry about sinning. The commandments are very important, a guide on how we should live, but they are not the keys to heaven or hell. I would say that my explanations above explain this very well.
Please clear this up for me, this would help me get my thoughts out easier. Do you believe that if you screw up and commit adultery or steal from somebody, then you are going to lose your salvation? Now, I'm not talking about some guy on the street commiting adultery, I'm talking about a Christian who has true faith in Jesus Christ. We all screw up some time or another. We are not perfect. Would you agree??? That is the purpose of Forgiveness. We ask God to forgive us of our sins.
1 John 3:4-6-"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

-There is a difference between committing a sin and continuing to sin. Even the most faithful believers sometimes commit sins, but they do not cherish a particular sin and choose to commit it. A believer who commits a sin repents, confesses, and finds forgiveness. A person who continues to sin, by contrast, is not sorry for what he is doing. Thus this person never confesses and never receives forgiveness. Such a person is in opposition to God, no matter what religious claims they make.


"And also, I am NOT saying that one should just fall into temptation left and right. I'm saying that by YOUR LOGIC, we shouldn't care. You say God doesn't want us to fall into temptation... Umm, well, he msut not care THAT much if He doesn't even DO anything about it!"

If going by my logic that you cannot lose your salvation, and you fall into temptation and don't care, that is the wrong mindset. Just because our salvation is guaranteed (as my belief is), it doesn't mean that we can run around humping whoever we want and cussing like a sailor. When we sin it does hurt us, and our relationship with God. No, it doesn't take our salvation away, but it does distance ourselves from God. It gives us a guilty feeling and keeps us from doing the good that we were intended to do. I screw up all of the time. No, I don't go screwing around with other girls or commit murder, but I do sin. There might be a commandment that I disobey, or I might get angry and it turns to rage. There are tons of things that I do and that everyone does that goes against God's word. But that doesn't mean he takes away our salvation for punishment. He might discipline us so that we learn from our mistakes, and if we are truly sorry for what we did, then we will try to fix it. Take pornography for example. Would you not say that this is a sin and something that God speaks out against? Millions and millions of men around the world are trapped in the world of pornography, and a majority of those men are Christian. It is a constant battle for men, and 99.9% of the time men fail. But God will not punish us for it by taking our salvation away. We need to keep working at it until the day comes when we have finally beaten it. Sadly, for most men that day doesn't come until the day they die. Is hell the right place for these Christian men who have battled this sin for their whole life? Even Christ says that looking lustfully at a woman is commiting adultery in your heart. Who can say with honesty, they've never lusted after a woman? David, a man after God's own heart, commited adultery and yet God told him he would be in heaven with him. Shall we keep on committing adultery then? No, we need to pray for forgiveness and change. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23


"Also, if we can come to no agreement, who is to be the final authority? The Bible? Because the Bible supposedly is your final authority, an yet thousands of different protestants believe thousands of different things. So when I ask you how you know YOUR interpretation is correct, you really have no way of knowing."

It's true we don't know who's interpretation is the correct one, and honestly it doesn't really matter. I believe you cannot lose your salvation. Does that mean that I go around doing whatever I want. No, I fear God and love Him and I try with my whole heart to obey his commands because I love Him and He loves me. I realize I'm a sinner and I ask for forgiveness and try to turn away from my sin. Whether we believe that we can lose our salvation or not, if we seek God with our whole heart and choose to obey his commands, then together we will be standing next to each other in heaven.
Please don't let this last sentance or 2 stop you from continuing this debate, I find this very interesting.

With love, Dario