[nagpo]

Quote: (Originally Posted by 00iceman)

Well, since you opened this can...

It's amazing to me how arrogant we as humans are. Colossians 1:17 tells us flat out that the Creator holds all things together. The very atoms that make up the cells of our body would fly apart if it were not for Him, not to mention that we cannot even take our next breath on our own. We do NOTHING under our own power, only what our Creator has given us the power to do. This has nothing to do with religion or religious debate, because it's not up for debate. You say you believe in God, but if you believe in God, you must believe His Word, because they are 1 in the same according to John 1:1. So when Scott gives God and reading the Bible credit for his life change, he is speaking the truth.

This is really only your own opinion, you can't prove any of it. Atoms stay together do to there attraction of the neutrons, protons and electrons inside them. I can so simply take a breath on my own, I can also choose to not breath if I wanted. What you said is very much so up to debate for you do not have any facts being your statement at all. Just blind faith. People often need such faith because they can not make sense of the world on their own. They are often to weak to deal with the hardships of life on their own and need the promise of a salvation to make it worth it all. That's all Faith in a God really is.

And to try to clarify some Christian beliefs...

1. As you said, you can be moral and not believe in God. This is true, however my hamburger illustration was meant to make the point that there is no point to living a "moral" life if there is nothing behind it People can live a happy moral life without the belief in God and there is a reason to do so. And that is- one lives a certain way he thinks is right. People still have consciousness without a God belief. Infact, living a life righteously with out the promise of Heaven is that not more righteously is in itself? - ie. a relationship with the Creator. For the Christian, a relationship with the Creator is exactly what His Word says it is: it is a relationship whereby we humans who have all fallen short of the mark of sinless perfection (Romans 3:23) have accepted the fact that Christ loved us so much that He came to this Earth and died our death that we deserve as sinners on the cross. He then went on to defeat death by coming back to life 3 days later. (John 3:16, Romans 10:9, etc) The fact that we accept this truth guarantees our eternity in Heaven, rather than Hell (or "the place of eternal punishment", "lake of fire", etc - Matthew 25:46, John 3:16, John 3:36, Revelation 20:15). The natural tendency once you have accepted this truth is to strive to live a moral and honorable life, not just for yourself or others, but for the One who died for you, who even made it possible for you to choose Heaven.

Sounds more like a guilt trip to me. Why should I strive to change my own life for someone that supposedly died for my sake? I owe that Christ person nothing. Why is he asking so much of me? Because he is God? No. I will live my life the way I want to. I am no sheep for a Sheppard. I am a simple man whose flock is only myself trying to make it in the world while making good decisions. And the definition of 'Good' may vary throughout my life.

2. You mentioned "lesser rights" for gay men. The Bible gives several clear examples of God's disapproval of homosexual behavior (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). If you read Genesis 19, God destroys an entire city because of its sexual perversion. Our American heritage that began with the Framers of the Constitution is based upon the Bible and the values therein. As a Christian, I don't hate those who practice homosexual behavior - they, like myself, were created in God's image (Genesis 1:27). Also like myself, they were born into a sinful nature. However, the homosexual has chosen to embrace that sinful nature, rather than repent of it. I therefore hate sin, just as God does.

If there was a God, he does not hate his children. He set up this life in the first place after all right? He intended there to be a sinful side. If he did not, then he would not have created it so. Truly, if he loved all his children on this earth, there would be no consequence of Hell. And if we are created in God image, then why are we gay? Is God gay? Why is it physically possible to have Same-sex sex if its so wrong in the first place then?

Also, if you look at the history of the world and pay attention to ANY society's evolution then you know what was once wrong in a society, and at the time believed to be wrong and perverse, is now considered to be okay. Racism towards blacks used to be expected, we even treated them as slaves. But now we have a black president. Mormons used to practice polygamy, now they thinks that's wrong. And for the big hitter, Greeks used to believe in Zeus and other types of Gods. But over time, that religion died out. The same thing will happen to Christianity to. Peoples faith and beliefs will change along with the times, because they need to adapt to whats affecting them at that time. And born into a sinful nature is incorrect. Humans are born innocent. A child is not a sinner, for he has not acted in any manner. His fate or life is not and should not be decided by his ancestors actions.

3. To those who do not believe in God at all, or you have bought into the lie of evolution or any other "scientific" explanation, I beg you to reconsider what you think you know. Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created..." Romans 1:20 says: "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
All you do is rely on a book that has more contradictions and interpretations than anything in this world. Science explains things more thoroughly and clearly than blind faith. Science makes sense. The Bible does not, if you look at it logically. I've already talked to you about society's evolutions, must I teach you about the evolution of the world and the universe as a whole? Then again, scientists do not know everything about the universe nor about the world, but they do know plenty to create facts with proof behind them and also create theory's with some proof behind them.

At least scientists try to explain Dinosaurs. Christians just dismiss the absolute truth of their existence because it conflicts with what they are taught. It conflicts with their human identity, or intellectual identity. Dinosaurs are proof of evolution in terms of how they were unable to evolve. They were unable to survive the world. Eventually smarter creatures who could adapt took over the world. Christianity is also proof of evolution. From one faith to another as times go on. Which ever faith makes sense and comforts our needs at the time and is most relevant. Christianity is losing it's relevancy. It's not even the oldest current religion still going. It's not even the largest religion in the world.

My reply's are in bold in the quote.