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Higher_Desire · 05-13-2005, 06:45 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer) "Begotten" does not mean created. In fact, the Nicene Creed clearly states Jesus as the eternally begotten of the Father, and yet all Christians who recite the Nicene Creed would definitely say Jesus is not created.

I never said that "bogotten" meant created. I know that it means that he was selected by God in the beginning as "the one." The bible states that he was the first chosen.

Quote: Alright, the Church issue is interesting. You say NO church of today is exactly what Jesus intended? NONE? How is that possible, if you believe his words "the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it"? I definitely believe there is a Church today that Jesus founded two thousand years ago, and I believe I am in it.

Well, I believe that I'm in the right one. Other people believe they're in the right one as well. Who's right? Do only members of one particular religion go to heaven?

Quote: I certainly don't believe Lutheranism is the true church, so your example of new churches is faulty, as far as I am concerned. (I'm Catholic by the way, in case you wonder where I am coming from). I believe Jesus established ONE Church meant to live for all time. The Gates of Hell were not going to prevail against it, and it was not going to "change".

Just because I used it as an example does not make it useless. I know you don't believe it, and I don't either, but my point was that what were one time considered as these apostate-type offshoots and untrue, have come to be widely accepted religions and religious sects.

Quote: Let me explain something: in the Bible, Jesus clearly founds a Church. He also says it will prevail even against the Gates of Hell, AND he says you are either "with Him or against Him". (I don't have the exact scripture quotations but I can find them if need be). So basically, I don't see how you can say that no church today is the exact same as Jesus Church. He founded a Church, and then he let it fall apart or mutate? And by the way, when exactly do you think it fell apart? Because if I know that, I can explain somewhat more effectively.

Firstly, I absolutely agree that he founded a church and one who isn't with him is against him. I believe I said something similar earlier. However, HE didn't let it fall apart or mutate, as you say. It was corrupted by men (examples: Acts 8:3, Matt 21/Mark 11/Luke 19). Just because God tells them how it should be ran, doesn't mean they're going to do it. You can see in the bible how Christ's church changed after his crucifixion.

Quote: If you are not in the one church, you are in the wrong church--clearly stated by His "with Him or agaisnt Him". So either you believe the Mormon Church is the only true church or you don't. Assuming, of course, that you do, wouldn't you believe it is the SAME Church that Jesus founded? If not, how can it be the true church?

But does the word "church" as used in the bible exactly the same as we use it today? Oftentimes in the bible, where the church is referenced, it is used as "the believers." I do believe that the mormon church is the MOST correct. I believe there is more truth in it than any other church, even though all churches that teach the love of God, Christ-like works, God's saving grace, love of your neighbor, biblical teachings, etc. are good and legit churches. Just out of curiosity, do you know about Gematria?

Let me talk about the verses you posted now:
Matthew 28: 18-19
- All power was given to God in the beginning. As I've said, he is the only begotten of the Father.
- Why would Jesus tell them to baptize them in his name, his name, and his name if he is all three? He says "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

Matthew 3: 16
- Did Christ open the heavens, and make his own spirit decend upon him, and call his voice from heaven?

Luke 1: 30-35
- "Son of the highest"
- "Son of God"

John 10: 38, 14: 9, 17: 10
- The father is in him, just like my father is in me, as I am his son and have learned from him, and I am in him because he raised me. Christ was teaching what God wanted taught. Read the two verses before 38. He mentions "Son of God" and "My Father".

2 Corinthians 13:13
- I don't see what this verse has to do with anything. It just says "All the saints salute you."

Ephesians 2:18, 4: 6
- It is referencing "the Spirit" as the Holy Spirit, by which we all can commune with the father.

1 Timothy 2: 5
- This is a good one. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Personally, I think that supports my side of the argument.

1 Peter 1: 12
- Again, the spirit is on earth, as we rely on it and reference it always. It decended upon Christ at his baptism, and leads us today as we follow God's word.

1 John 5: 7-8
- This is good to your side. v 7 does say "the three that bear record in heaven, the father, the word, and the holy ghost: and these three are one." but then the next verse says "...bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." Last time I checked, spirit, blood, and water were all different. Have you ever heard the statement "Working as a team you work as one"? I think that also works for this.

Well, I've been on here for a bit long, and I have to go to an art show opening, but I'll post about the "Trinity vs. Godhead" thing and our stance on it later, as dario requested. (about an hour or so).

-D

05-13-2005, 06:45 PM	#40
Higher_Desire USER INFO » Status: Found Peace Posts: 8,631 Joined: Apr 2003 Currently: Offline	Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer) "Begotten" does not mean created. In fact, the Nicene Creed clearly states Jesus as the eternally begotten of the Father, and yet all Christians who recite the Nicene Creed would definitely say Jesus is not created. I never said that "bogotten" meant created. I know that it means that he was selected by God in the beginning as "the one." The bible states that he was the first chosen. Quote: Alright, the Church issue is interesting. You say NO church of today is exactly what Jesus intended? NONE? How is that possible, if you believe his words "the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it"? I definitely believe there is a Church today that Jesus founded two thousand years ago, and I believe I am in it. Well, I believe that I'm in the right one. Other people believe they're in the right one as well. Who's right? Do only members of one particular religion go to heaven? Quote: I certainly don't believe Lutheranism is the true church, so your example of new churches is faulty, as far as I am concerned. (I'm Catholic by the way, in case you wonder where I am coming from). I believe Jesus established ONE Church meant to live for all time. The Gates of Hell were not going to prevail against it, and it was not going to "change". Just because I used it as an example does not make it useless. I know you don't believe it, and I don't either, but my point was that what were one time considered as these apostate-type offshoots and untrue, have come to be widely accepted religions and religious sects. Quote: Let me explain something: in the Bible, Jesus clearly founds a Church. He also says it will prevail even against the Gates of Hell, AND he says you are either "with Him or against Him". (I don't have the exact scripture quotations but I can find them if need be). So basically, I don't see how you can say that no church today is the exact same as Jesus Church. He founded a Church, and then he let it fall apart or mutate? And by the way, when exactly do you think it fell apart? Because if I know that, I can explain somewhat more effectively. Firstly, I absolutely agree that he founded a church and one who isn't with him is against him. I believe I said something similar earlier. However, HE didn't let it fall apart or mutate, as you say. It was corrupted by men (examples: Acts 8:3, Matt 21/Mark 11/Luke 19). Just because God tells them how it should be ran, doesn't mean they're going to do it. You can see in the bible how Christ's church changed after his crucifixion. Quote: If you are not in the one church, you are in the wrong church--clearly stated by His "with Him or agaisnt Him". So either you believe the Mormon Church is the only true church or you don't. Assuming, of course, that you do, wouldn't you believe it is the SAME Church that Jesus founded? If not, how can it be the true church? But does the word "church" as used in the bible exactly the same as we use it today? Oftentimes in the bible, where the church is referenced, it is used as "the believers." I do believe that the mormon church is the MOST correct. I believe there is more truth in it than any other church, even though all churches that teach the love of God, Christ-like works, God's saving grace, love of your neighbor, biblical teachings, etc. are good and legit churches. Just out of curiosity, do you know about Gematria? Let me talk about the verses you posted now: Matthew 28: 18-19 - All power was given to God in the beginning. As I've said, he is the only begotten of the Father. - Why would Jesus tell them to baptize them in his name, his name, and his name if he is all three? He says "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Matthew 3: 16 - Did Christ open the heavens, and make his own spirit decend upon him, and call his voice from heaven? Luke 1: 30-35 - "Son of the highest" - "Son of God" John 10: 38, 14: 9, 17: 10 - The father is in him, just like my father is in me, as I am his son and have learned from him, and I am in him because he raised me. Christ was teaching what God wanted taught. Read the two verses before 38. He mentions "Son of God" and "My Father". 2 Corinthians 13:13 - I don't see what this verse has to do with anything. It just says "All the saints salute you." Ephesians 2:18, 4: 6 - It is referencing "the Spirit" as the Holy Spirit, by which we all can commune with the father. 1 Timothy 2: 5 - This is a good one. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Personally, I think that supports my side of the argument. 1 Peter 1: 12 - Again, the spirit is on earth, as we rely on it and reference it always. It decended upon Christ at his baptism, and leads us today as we follow God's word. 1 John 5: 7-8 - This is good to your side. v 7 does say "the three that bear record in heaven, the father, the word, and the holy ghost: and these three are one." but then the next verse says "...bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." Last time I checked, spirit, blood, and water were all different. Have you ever heard the statement "Working as a team you work as one"? I think that also works for this. Well, I've been on here for a bit long, and I have to go to an art show opening, but I'll post about the "Trinity vs. Godhead" thing and our stance on it later, as dario requested. (about an hour or so). -D __________________ Today I'm gonna try a little harder Gonna make every minute last longer Gonna learn to forgive and forget 'Cause we don't have long Gonna make the most of it Today I'm gonna love my enemies Reach out to somebody who needs me Make a change, make the world a better place 'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late --lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet from their new album "Awake"