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uncertaindrumer · 05-12-2005, 10:53 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) OK.

All I know about is studies that have been done. However, depending on who did the tests, how they were conducted, etc. different results can be found. There have been people who tested the validity of the Book of Mormon, for example, (both members and nonmenbers) who can find that it is 100% accurate, and others who find it to be 10% wrong based upon travels and whatnot of the people written about it. I'll try to look up more on the subject.

True. I look at verses like Acts 7:55, which states that "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God." Though, there are also things that claim that Jesus created the earth under the direction of God, so it's a really tough topic to figure out exactly what's going on. Of course, there are also references (ex: John, Hebrews, 1st John, etc) that refer to Jesus as "the only begotten of the Father" which could say that Jesus was the first spirit created.

It wasn't a "Mormon Church" as we know it now, exactly. It was THE Church of Jesus Christ. It was taught and organized by him, and was the origianal Christian church. It didn't become the "mormon" church (as discussed here) until Joseph Smith organized the church in 1830. After Jesus died and ascended into heaven after his resurrection, things were kept going. Like everything with time, it changed. We do believe, however, that our church most closely eminates what the church was like in the time of Christ. It's not 100% the same, and no church ever will be 100% identical.

Don't be so fast to judge new churches as not the truth. Take Lutheranism, for example. It was one of those churches once, when Martin Luther chose to reform the church, it became an offshoot, and eventually grew. Or that guy (I can't remember his name right now) who started the Methodist church. They both, at one time, were very minor and had only a few followers, yet grew with time. I really can't think of any religion (or religious sect) that was not minor and "wrong" at the time they were formed.

If you read in the bible, you can see of periods of time when there was no prophets for an extended period of time. God always guided his church, and sent prophets when they were ready; the willing men and women who desired to serve. We've always had the guide of the Bible during that time, and there was religion on earth that was good, but not exactly what there should have been. People have always been doing the work of God. There a verse (I don't remember where) that says something about making secrets of God known when the world is ready for them. I'll see if I can find it. Or, as it says in Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." I believe that from even before the birth of Christ in the New Testament through today and tomorrow that God leads the truth and reveals his secrets.

If you read exactly what I said, it was "up until the time of the Roman empire." The Roman Empire is one of the first big religious revivals that we see where they try to bring back many old beliefs, traditions, and customs. There were previous attempts before that as well, but that is where they really start to stick around.

I agree. You have many good positions on your understanding of religion. A lot moreso than some of the people in here.

H-D

"Begotten" does not mean created. In fact, the Nicene Creed clearly states Jesus as the eternally begotten of the Father, and yet all Christians who recite the Nicene Creed would definitely say Jesus is not created.

Alright, the Church issue is interesting. You say NO church of today is exactly what Jesus intended? NONE? How is that possible, if you believe his words "the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it"? I definitely believe there is a Church today that Jesus founded two thousand years ago, and I believe I am in it.

I certainly don't believe Lutheranism is the true church, so your example of new churches is faulty, as far as I am concerned. (I'm Catholic by the way, in case you wonder where I am coming from). I believe Jesus established ONE Church meant to live for all time. The Gates of Hell were not going to prevail against it, and it was not going to "change".

Let me explain something: in the Bible, Jesus clearly founds a Church. He also says it will prevail even against the Gates of Hell, AND he says you are either "with Him or against Him". (I don't have the exact scripture quotations but I can find them if need be). So basically, I don't see how you can say that no church today is the exact same as Jesus Church. He founded a Church, and then he let it fall apart or mutate? And by the way, when exactly do you think it fell apart? Because if I know that, I can explain somewhat more effectively.

If you are not in the one church, you are in the wrong church--clearly stated by His "with Him or agaisnt Him". So either you believe the Mormon Church is the only true church or you don't. Assuming, of course, that you do, wouldn't you believe it is the SAME Church that Jesus founded? If not, how can it be the true church?

As for the Trinity, I will give my case for that later, I am running out of time. But I definitely am enjoying this.

05-12-2005, 10:53 AM	#35
uncertaindrumer USER INFO » Status: Wound Up Posts: 1,255 Joined: Dec 2004 Currently: Offline	Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) OK. All I know about is studies that have been done. However, depending on who did the tests, how they were conducted, etc. different results can be found. There have been people who tested the validity of the Book of Mormon, for example, (both members and nonmenbers) who can find that it is 100% accurate, and others who find it to be 10% wrong based upon travels and whatnot of the people written about it. I'll try to look up more on the subject. True. I look at verses like Acts 7:55, which states that "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God." Though, there are also things that claim that Jesus created the earth under the direction of God, so it's a really tough topic to figure out exactly what's going on. Of course, there are also references (ex: John, Hebrews, 1st John, etc) that refer to Jesus as "the only begotten of the Father" which could say that Jesus was the first spirit created. It wasn't a "Mormon Church" as we know it now, exactly. It was THE Church of Jesus Christ. It was taught and organized by him, and was the origianal Christian church. It didn't become the "mormon" church (as discussed here) until Joseph Smith organized the church in 1830. After Jesus died and ascended into heaven after his resurrection, things were kept going. Like everything with time, it changed. We do believe, however, that our church most closely eminates what the church was like in the time of Christ. It's not 100% the same, and no church ever will be 100% identical. Don't be so fast to judge new churches as not the truth. Take Lutheranism, for example. It was one of those churches once, when Martin Luther chose to reform the church, it became an offshoot, and eventually grew. Or that guy (I can't remember his name right now) who started the Methodist church. They both, at one time, were very minor and had only a few followers, yet grew with time. I really can't think of any religion (or religious sect) that was not minor and "wrong" at the time they were formed. If you read in the bible, you can see of periods of time when there was no prophets for an extended period of time. God always guided his church, and sent prophets when they were ready; the willing men and women who desired to serve. We've always had the guide of the Bible during that time, and there was religion on earth that was good, but not exactly what there should have been. People have always been doing the work of God. There a verse (I don't remember where) that says something about making secrets of God known when the world is ready for them. I'll see if I can find it. Or, as it says in Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." I believe that from even before the birth of Christ in the New Testament through today and tomorrow that God leads the truth and reveals his secrets. If you read exactly what I said, it was "up until the time of the Roman empire." The Roman Empire is one of the first big religious revivals that we see where they try to bring back many old beliefs, traditions, and customs. There were previous attempts before that as well, but that is where they really start to stick around. I agree. You have many good positions on your understanding of religion. A lot moreso than some of the people in here. H-D "Begotten" does not mean created. In fact, the Nicene Creed clearly states Jesus as the eternally begotten of the Father, and yet all Christians who recite the Nicene Creed would definitely say Jesus is not created. Alright, the Church issue is interesting. You say NO church of today is exactly what Jesus intended? NONE? How is that possible, if you believe his words "the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it"? I definitely believe there is a Church today that Jesus founded two thousand years ago, and I believe I am in it. I certainly don't believe Lutheranism is the true church, so your example of new churches is faulty, as far as I am concerned. (I'm Catholic by the way, in case you wonder where I am coming from). I believe Jesus established ONE Church meant to live for all time. The Gates of Hell were not going to prevail against it, and it was not going to "change". Let me explain something: in the Bible, Jesus clearly founds a Church. He also says it will prevail even against the Gates of Hell, AND he says you are either "with Him or against Him". (I don't have the exact scripture quotations but I can find them if need be). So basically, I don't see how you can say that no church today is the exact same as Jesus Church. He founded a Church, and then he let it fall apart or mutate? And by the way, when exactly do you think it fell apart? Because if I know that, I can explain somewhat more effectively. If you are not in the one church, you are in the wrong church--clearly stated by His "with Him or agaisnt Him". So either you believe the Mormon Church is the only true church or you don't. Assuming, of course, that you do, wouldn't you believe it is the SAME Church that Jesus founded? If not, how can it be the true church? As for the Trinity, I will give my case for that later, I am running out of time. But I definitely am enjoying this. __________________ Titans baby, Titans.