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Old 05-13-2005, 12:39 PM   #6
dario
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[quote=uncertaindrumer]Actually, works are QUITE necessary for salvation, seeing as James says "We are justified by works and NOT by Faith alone", so yes, if someone goes around murdering, stealing, and adulterating, they can lose their salvation. Sure, all thigns are possible with God, but it says in Revelation, "Nothing unclean shall enter heaven" (not an exact quotation). If you have sin on your soul ("the wages of sin is death") then you can't enter heaven.


By reading your statements I can see that you are gung-ho with the idea that you can lose your salvation, but can you honestly say that works are necessary for it?? So are you saying that if tomorrow I go and steal food from a store that I lose my salvation? Nothing we can do will get us into heaven, absolutely nothing. It is by the grace of God that we enter heaven. Again, Romans 11:6 says, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were grace would no longer be grace."


If Jesus meerely meant that standing firm was the "by-product" of salvation, He would have said "He who is saved will stand firm to the end". He DOESN'T say that. He clearly says "He who perseveres will be saved". Notice, he says WILL BE, as if it is something we have to continue working towards.


Would you agree with me that the passage you are using is Jesus talking about the end of the age? Because if you do, then you will see that Jesus is talking about persevering to the end. When saints are being persecuted for their faith, they need to stand firm so that at the end of it all they will be saved from their persecution.

I'm sorry, but you seem to just be jumping through hoops here to get your interpretation. He clearly states that branches have been cut OFF. Now, to be cut OFF they have to be ON there in the first place. And let's get something straight here, he is not talking about "unbelief" in the Mosaic law. Paul has HAMMERED the idea that Christians need also follow the Mosaic law. He is talking about belief in Jesus Christ. And if we falter in that belief we can be CUT OFF. There is no mincing words here. Paul just SAYS that we can be cut off. This has nothing to do with Abraham. Paul says that if we are believers but then persist in unbelief, we can be cut off. Nothing complex about it.


It might seem like I am jumping through hoops to get my interpretation, but I can say the same thing for you. You are trying to fit these verses into your own interpretation. I can say the same thing for myself, but I am taking the verses in the context they are used, not twisting them into what I want them to say.


Your Bible's commentary has some funny ideas. Where on earth do you get the idea that he is talking about the privilege of telling others abouth Christ? It never says anything REMOTELY like that in the passage. The only interpretation an honest reader could come to is that he is seapking of Salvation; if your interpretation is correct, the pasage basically reads "for fear that after having preached to others, I may no longer be able to preach to others". That is ridiculous. It only makes sense if Paul is basically saying that he is afraid that after having preached to others, he will lose his own salvation if he does not follow his own words. Your intperpretation is just reading into the text


Funny ideas?? I would probably believe what my bible's commentary has to say about a verse before what you say, considering the fact that the people who write these commentary's are scholars and experts on the bible.

"It only makes sense if Paul is basically saying that he is afraid that after having preached to others, he will lose his own salvation if he does not follow his own words."

No, it does not mean that he will lose his salvation if he does not follow his own words. It means practicing what you preach. If he his telling people how to live and not taking his own advice, then he's being hypocritical. What you are basically saying is that we all need to be perfect Christians to get into heaven. What you are saying almost sounds like what the Pharisees believed. IT IS BY GODS GRACE THAT WE GET INTO HEAVEN NOTHING ELSE. There is no arguing that.


Fall into TEMPTATION?! What on earth? If we cannot lose our salvation, who CARES if we fall into temptation. If our salvation is ASSURED, this passage i nonsense. It basically states (according to your interpretation): Be careful not to fall into temptation, but it doesn't REALLY matter because you are going to heaven anyway! There is no reason at ALL to believe this is talking about anything other than threat to your salvation. Unless it is a threat to salvation, why worry that we may fall? Because we will still go right to Heaven.

I have a big problem with this statement, unfortunately I have to go back to work. I will be back tonight however, to give you my thoughts on this and I will elaborate more on my reasonings.

Even though we have differing views on this subject, it is good to argue about it because it gets us further into the bible and our own learnings. I hope that nothing I say is offensive and I hope we can continue this. Thank you for this wonderful time.
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