Baptism or hell?
 

This baptism stuff has got me thinking

What if someone wasnt baptised but loved Jesus and truly had a relationship with him?

What if they had just given their life to him and soon after that had an accident and died? Would they go to hell?

My mum is PETRIFIED of water on her face cos of nearly drowning when she was a kid, so will she go to hell?

WHat does the word say about it all? I thought John 3:16 was the truth. It doesnt say be baptised, it says those who believe in Jesus...

What do others think?

My 2 cents
 

:D No Im Serious Sweetie Let Me Tell You What I Think But I,ve Gave My 2 cents On This Topic Before But I will Do It Again I Love The Sound Of Myself First Lets Start With Hell Hell Is Many Things To A Lot Of Different People And Lets Not Forget We Are All Partakers In Christ But Work In Diffrent Ways Of Our Salvation To Meet The Needs Of Others There Is Some Partakers :D That I Find It Hard To Fellowship With But you know i kinda look at what their doing and i do in fact believe that their doing what the lord has called theme to But I Do Believe In The PROMISE OF GREATER WORKS And Its More Than What I See Today And Of Course The Word Tells Us To Stay With Doctrine And The Word Is Not The Aurthour Of Confusion So We Cant Go Pointing Fingers Whos Right And Whos Wrong Its Pointless And Sometimes Its Like So Hard Heres What Sis Does I Look At Peoples Spirtual Views And I Try To Disearn Thier Light And Their Gifts And Their Callings And Forget About What Is Wrong And Uplift Theme In Their Works ... Now As Far As The Babtism Its Self Its Not For Everybody The Babtisim Is A Serious Thing And In No Means Is It To Be Taken Lightly When You Are Ready To Understan Thereof Its Meaning And Why We Must All Be Babtised You Will Understand And To Anwser Your Question My Littlie Friend i dont believe if some one who is serving christ if he or she is not babtized i dont Believe That They Will Go To Hell, The Lake Of Fire EEEEEEEEEEEEEk But I Find Hell A Much More Horrbile Place MY HELL Would Be A Life Where There Is No Christ, :) For Our Lord Taught Us All On Many Things AMEN And TIM Tells Us STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APROVED Which Is Something I really Need To Work On But Its Ok To Wonder And Explore And Question Diffrent Faiths And Other Believes We Can Learn From Theme Instead Of Being So Quick To Judge I See My Beliefs Reflict In So Many Others And You Know Who Is Really Right And Who Is Really Wrong And In What Areas They Need To Grow And You Can Learn In What Areas You Need To Gro From Theme haaaaaaaaa i know its kind funny But Its All About Untiy And Love And Looking For The Good And Not The Bad And If Someone Is Like Really Wrong The Spirt Will Quicken You And Tell You WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT IS FALSE My Advice To Everybody Is Like Unto What Heaven Posted This Morning FOR KINGS AND FOR ALL THAT OUR IN AUTHORITY That We May Lead Quiet And Lifes Of Peace In All Godliness And Honstey For This Is Good AND ACCEPABLE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD OUR SAVIOUR WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLOEGE OF TRUTH FOR THERE IS BUT ONE GOD AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN THE MAN CHRIST JESUS : WHO GAVE HIMSELF RANSOME FOR ALL TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME... BLESSINGS Sweetie :jam: :jam: :jam:

baptism is not necessary for salvation....case in point was the man who jesus saved whilst on the cross. the man was never baptised yet jesus promised him eternal life. discussion over..... :) however it is an ordiance that is commanded so if someone refuses to obey then questions would need to be asked.

THE BIBLE SAYS IT

if your not baptised

YOU BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY!!!!

Why would the thief have needed to be baptized since Jesus was right there? Jesus is not standing in our midst today, hence baptism is necessary. Although in extreme cases like the one mentioned in the first post then I'm pretty sure God will let that slide. ;)

ah, my friend, the discussion is not over. maybe if you get the story straight it would be. first off, Christ did not promise the thief eternal life. he promised that he would be with him in paradise. now, my friends, paradise is different from eternal life, or what we would call heaven. consider this: Jesus tell the theif that he would be with him in paradise, but then later right after his resurrection, he tells mary that he has yet to ascend to his Father...meaning that paradise, and heaven, the placewhere God lives, are two different places. my friend, get the story straight. now the discussion is over.

the story remains the same. if a man is born of water and of the spirit, he cant enter into the kingdom of heaven. case closed. why are you disputing. what, you think it was april fools. you think it was a comedy club? if youre not baptised, you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. no ifs ands or buts about it. ok. and whats with you ppl and hell? you think theres only heaven and hell? my friends, no. remember what paul tells us about the 3 degrees of heaven: the Celestial kingdom, where God is: the glory of the sun. the Terrestrial kingdom, glory of the moon, and the Telestrial kingdom, glory of the stars. now, there are requirements for entering into the celestial kingdom, the kingdom of heaven. and one of those is baptism. why? because its a commandment. you all claim to be christians, and you claim to love Christ, buit if you love him, you would keep his commandments 100%. this isnt a boy's club. this is the gospel of Christ, a way of life, and any other way other than the way that Christ gave us, is the way of satan. and my friends, these things are true, because i know they are true.

Back in the day, a person who converted from one religion to another was often baptized to identify conversion... Baptism was the means of making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not truly believe... So, in the minds of the apostles, the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius" (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power" (1 Corinthians 1:17)?

Some denominations argue that baptism is necessary for salvation due to a misinterpretation of one or two verses of Scripture. See your pastor if you have a question about this. Overall, the Scriptures are very clear and consistent, baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Heaven

:pimp:

jesus not yet ascending to his father proves that paradise and heaven are two different places? hey dude can i have what you're smoking? :laugh: okay i shouldn't laugh but seriously explain to me how that makes any sense whatsoever. paradise=eternal life unless you have a MUCH better reason for stating otherwise.

secondly the bible NEVER states the baptism is required for the salvation of a soul although together with communion it forms the two most important ordiances in the faith. i'll repeat again that is commanded so someone who refuses it i would ask some severe questions of. and LOL at King! :laugh:

anyway if us "christians" (in the loosest terms possible) can't agree on some basic sound theology why should the "world" pay us any attention?

My Point Excalty
 

We Can Learn How To Love Others By Viewing Thier Thoughts And Opion And X Shows...That He Stands Behind His Opion By The Way He Expreses Himself ....

Read the facts: John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn bagain, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be aborn again.

Yeah, you're right. You shouldn't laugh at what you don't know. You can read in the New Testament of Jesus going to another area before ascending into heaven where he taught those that he saw to show that the Messiah had come. He then appointed people as teachers to go to those who wouldn't see him.


H-D :pimp:

you are right laughing wasen't the best idea but i do know the facts here. he is speaking of being born again not baptism. if baptism is needed for salavation than men such as those jesus saved on the cross would be unsaved. it is a public display of faith, not something that saves. christianity is all about God saving. If baptism is needed for salvation then that is man doing something to earn salavation.

aussie, let me spell this out sloooowww. Jesus tells the thief that "today" you will be with me in paradise. 3 days later after He is resurrected, He tells mary that He had yet ascended to HIs Father. im no expert or anything, but i though having eternal life was living with the Father, for eternity. yet Jesus hadnt gone to his father until a couple of days after HE was with the thief in paradise. my man, theres a differnce. instead of laughing, you should be studying.
oh yeah, what do you think being born again is?! if a man isnt born of WATER and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. thats baptism my friend. and yes there are things you have to do to have salvation... its called keeping the commandments. baptism is a commanment, so keep it. you claim to be christian, you claim to love Christ, then keep his commandments and stop making excuses.

thats because he didnt, someone else did. what you think he was the only person in the world that had the authority to baptise?

so how would you interpet john 3:5? its clear, it tells me that baptism is very necessary. what more do you need?

Being born again comes with a conversion to Christ which is signified or shown by baptism. If Jesus Christ was standing right in front of you and told you that you were saved, I'd say that takes presidence over being baptized. The theif on the cross told Christ that he believed when he was asked. Likewise, we must believe before we are baptized. Anyone you meet today who was baptized, I'd be willing to say they've never seen Christ face-to-face. Therefore, they must have faith and become converted to Christ.


H-D :pimp:

excuses? i'm not making excuses because i am baptised. however you are making an ordiance nescessary for salavation which would mean that man helps to save HIMSELF which is contary which christianity is all about. read up on doctrines such as predestination for example.

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"

Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.

If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

Heaven

:pimp:

^^^^ Amen! :)

In the New Testament, after Christ is born, he goes about his ministry and gained followers. Though they were not technically known as "Christians" they were called the "Followers of Christ." They became the foundations of would later be branded by men as "Christian."

Personally, I don't know why you say that baptism of repentence is not practiced, because it is the essential part in the conversion to Christ. One is baptized as a symbolic "washing away of sin" which is repentence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying you have to be baptized every time you sin. It is showing the changing of an old life into a new life with Christ. When baptized, you promise to turn away from your old ways and live a Christ-like life.

Lastly, I personally do not know of any Christian church that claims baptism isn't necessary. If you could please tell me some, that would be much appreciated.


H-D :pimp:

In Baptism it is God who is doing the work. God is the one pouring out the grace, but of course it requires some human action.

Take the Bible - you could say that it is just a man-made set of texts. But reality is that God worked through the people who wrote them (hence divine inspiration) in order to communicate his message.

So in baptism someone needs to perform it, but it is truly God that is doing the real work. Man is not saving himself.

Well said. :clap:


H-D :pimp:

Forgive me for intruding, but im curious about something. If i'm not baptized, then im going to hell? I dont think that is how god intends the scripture to be taken. I believe that if you are a believer in god, he wont hold it against you if you weren't baptized. Baptizm is symbolic (in my eyes) to a cleansing of the soul. Now mind you, i am agnostic, i do not believe in organized religion so my view may not be 100% correct, i used to be protestant until some events in my life changed my opinion. But anyway, I dont think that god sees it the way everyone else does, that you either get baptized, or are sent into eternal damnation. There are so many factors that would play into that. For one thing, what if the priest that baptized you, at one time, molested a young boy (no offense, but it happens). He, in all reality, shouldnt be considered a man of god. Does that mean that everyone who got baptized by that priest is living a lie, thinking that they got baptized by a man of god, when in all reality he was a child molester, and is not truely pure? That is my reasoning for believing that baptizm is not the factor that gets you into heaven, because so many things could play against the purity. I believe that if you are a believer, then you will be allowed into heaven. And i just want to let you know that i am not trying to offend anyone in any way, im just stating an opinion.

but that is still man having to save himself cause he has do some work in order to that. baptism is a symbolic showing of one's repentance and commitment but the act itself does NOTHING to save someone. it is a COMMANDED ordinance but it does not save anyone. only God only can justify a human soul according to the bible. higherdesire i'm not aware of any church that doesn't have baptism. however there are many churches which say that baptism does not form part of the salvation process. in fact there is no salvation process per se.

Definition of Baptism according to the NIV: Christian sacrament; a ritual washing with water, symbolizing a cleansing of sin, linked with repentance and admission into the community of faith; symbolic for being filled with the Holy Spirit.
To start off I would like to say that I do not believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. It is only through God's grace that we can enter the kingdom of heaven. The rest of the things I write are not my own thoughts but the verses and commentary of my Life Application Bible.
Matthew 3:11, " I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
-Baptism was an outward sign of commitment. To be effective, it had to be accompanied by an inward change of attitude leading to a changed life-the work of the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:16, " Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved...
-It is not the water of baptism that saves, but God's grace accepted through faith in Christ. Because of Jesus's response to the criminal on the cross who died with him, we know it is possible to be saved without being baptized (Luke 23:43). Baptism alone, without faith, does not automatically bring a person to heaven. Those who refuse to believe will be condemned, regardless of whether or not they have been baptized.

Interesting.

I must say that I really like the verses:

Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be saved"; cos its a really cool prophecy concerning that I think.

Also I was reading in Romans 10:9-13
...if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED....for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

I just love Romans.

I am baptized but yeh, I think I would have still gone to heaven if I died before I did, cos I had a true relationship with the Lord. I was even prophesying and stuff so He was deffinitely in my life.

though: If U believe that the Holy Spirit is urging U 2 be baptised I say do it!

I dont think we should be disobedient to God in anything. I mean a man said to Jesus that He had done everything to follow him and Jesus said he had to let his fortune go and the man went away sad cos it was too hard to do. Dont let anything get in the way of following God 100% I recon.

People seem rather confused on this issue. First, in true Protestant fashion, some have claimed Baptism is useless because it is a work. First, it is not really a work, it is an outpouring of Grace from God. Second, you might not believe works are important to Salvation, but that is another argument. Until you can prove that Salvation is obtained by proclaiming Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior (which the Bible never says, by the way), then you can't say Baptism is useless because it is a work.

"Baptism now saves you". I can't remember the exact verse (don't have my Bible with me) but it is in Acts, I suggest you read it. Obviously, there is the Nicodemus discussion, as well as plenty of other verses, I will find some later.

Some people have argued that God would not be cruel, and deny someone Heaven because they weren't baptized. Well there are different forms of Baptism. There is Baptism by water, the usual kind. There is Baptism by Desire, which is when you believe in God, want to be saved, but do not have the ability or knowledge or means to be baptized. There is also Baptism by Blood which is when you give your life for Christ, and you are immediately cleansed of all sin because There is no greater deed than giving one's life for Christ.

As for all of the verses pertaining to beliving in the Lord will save you: I couldn't agree more. You do indeed have to believe in the Lord. But Paul ALSO says elswhere that we are saved by Faith working through love, that he (Paul himself) is not yet "aquitted", and he was PAUL.

Sorry for lack of verses, I'll get more on this later.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have everylasting life.

BUT WAIT! THERES MORE!!!!!

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through Him. (not fricken being dunked in water! Though it is a step!)

Whoever believes in Him is not condemned...

Praise God that we are not saved by works so nobody can boast.

I have to go to class now!!! I am sure I will be back.

Sure, but the process for initiation into the Christian community is baptism. Why else were all the people in the bible being baptized after they were taught Jesus' message? Not because it was some simple ordinance, but because that is what initiates someone into a relationship with God and the Church. Baptism is initial grace given by God to the baptized person.

Not fricken being dunked in water? Is that all you think Baptism is? Then no wonder you don't think its important. Baptism is an outpouring of Grace from God, completely cleaning the soul of Sin, including Original sin. Baptism is the only thing that can get rid of Original sin. Believing in Christ is obviously required (no point getting Baptized if you don't) but Jesus instituted Baptism for the purpose of being able to cleanse our souls. This is pre-figured by The Great Flood in the old Testament. God cleansed the world through the flood and Baptism does the same thing.

Jesus tells his Apostles to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (Mathew 28: 19). Why would he include Baptims in his farewall address, so to speak, if it was unimportant?

Mark 16: 16 "Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved". Once again, Baptism is associated with being saved by Jesus. It does not say "Whoever believes will be saved"--although that is obviously required--it says whoever believes and is baptized.

Obviously, the Nicodemus dicsussion where Jesus says "...no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit" John 3: 5. I would also point out that this in the SAME passage as the line you keep quoting. And by the way, Jesus did NOT come to condemn the world! He gave us Baptism! His Death on the Cross enabled us to be saved. He also chose the vessel of that saving to be Baptism--or at least, the beginning of it. Baptism is not the end, of course. To say that he is condemning the world by giving us Baptism is sheer ludicrosity!

"Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" Acts 2: 38. How can you possibly say Baptism does nothing when Peter is saying to be Baptized for the forgiveness of your sins?

"Now why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name" Acts 22: 16. Once again, Baptism is directly associated with the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 6: 1-4 is also very explicit, although it is too long, I don't have the time to type it out. I suggest you read it and then tell me you still believe Baptism to be a "fricken dunking in water"

"That is what some of you used to be, but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified..." 1 Cor 6: 11. Once again, sanctified and justified being associated with water and washing away of sins, i.e Baptism.

Titus 3: 5 "Not because of any righteous deeds we had done, but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" More Saving through washing.

In 1 Peter 3: 21, talking abut the great flood, Peter says "This prefigured baptism, which saves you now" How on earth can you claim, after reading Peter say that Baptism saves you, that Baptism means nothing?

I can't find a reference in Acts for what you said about "baptism now saves you", but there is a reference in 1st Peter 3:21 that says that.

Baptism is a work (as you said yet people still don't belive) and "faith without works is dead."
For those who do not belive that statement, I suggest you read James 2.


H-D :pimp:

You are correct, I had a typo. I meant to say 1 Peter. I cleared it up in my last post.

Also, Sola Fide (Faith alone) is another subject which I would have a lot of fun debating. But even if you believe in Sola Fide, that should not influence your decision on Baptism. After all, if Baptism is a work (which it really isn't. If you want to get SUPER TECHNICAL, it is actually someone ELSE pouring the water on you), then proclaiming Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior is work. Because after all, you have to THINK it, and msot of the time you say a prayer to go along with it. And yet no protestant would claim it is a work. In the same way, Baptism is an outpouring of Grace from God.

.

Jester, you have absolutely NO tact AT ALL. You come into a FAITH AND RELIGION forum, and BASH everyone's Faith and religions.

I do not always agree with people on this forum. Sincirr, Higher Desire, etc. and I could all find a zillion things to disagree about, but we don't come in here for the sole purpose of making fun of someone else's faith. You don't know anything about Christianity or the Bible, that much is obvious, so stop pretending to, and stop INSULTING it.

.

I am sick and tired of hearing about your dad being a professor. YOU AREN'T. You OBVIOUSLY have no serious knowledge of the Bible, your ignorance is absurdly apparent.

But fine, go on bashing people if you would like. It might seem funny to you, but it isn't.

.

Hmmm... My conversings with you have gone way past theri usefulness. All you do is insult. It seems to be all you know how to do.

.

The Necessity Of Baptism
 

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283). (no one can consciously commit the sin of Adam, so you do not need informed consent to have it removed in baptism)

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.

Hermas

"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Tertullian

"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).

There are 10 more consistent quotes here, going from the 2nd to the 5th century:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Nece...of_Baptism.asp
There are many more.

Regenerative baptism was taught by Jesus and the Aposltes, pre-dates the canon of the Bible and the evidence is there for anyone who WANTS to see it.