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So, if its all cause and effect, then what caused the big bang or whatever else it is you believe? What caused existence altogether? God doesn't have to be the answer to everything. 2+2 does not equal God. We all know its 5. |
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Whoever said that God can do anything?!? Quote:
God can freely do that which is within His nature. Quote:
And that certainly does not make it so. The theist believes that God is so prevelant that His existence can be seen in everything, even your very ability to reason. Surely that would put the burden on you to prove how you can reason without God. Cheers |
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Very good post, sorry I should have read it before I responded. I said basically the same thing.;) |
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Omnipotent does not mean the ability to do anything. If I were omnipotent, I could walk through walls, I could not, however, both walk through a wall, and not walk through a wall at the same time. Quote:
Adam and Eve were not created as sinners. They were created with the ability to sin. There is a difference. Creating them with the ability to sin, is not against God's nature. Quote:
I realize that this is not my argument, but this is why I argue presuppositionaly rather than evidentially (in that case ontologically).Of course you would have to prove that God is an 'effect' to make your case, but you have a point. The presuppositionalist says that God must exist for you to make sense even of causality. The preconditions of intelligibility require universal, abstract, invariant laws, which you cannot account for in your worldview. Feel free to try however. Quote:
There are no true agnostics. If an agnostic were consisten with his belief, he would go to church half the time. Thanks for your good points. Cheers |
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fair enough that most or which is contained in the bible so the list shrinks to 3 off the op of my head but I am cetrtain there is more so here are the 3 as I see it 1. God Exists 2. We are the focus of his creation (yes I do realize that one could infer this from the bible out but based on the universe I still see this as an assumption) 3. The bible is 100% true and accurate Quote:
2. The is abiogenesis and this is the one assuption 3. evolution is an obervable science so it is not an assumption 3 (agian). Please clairify what you mean by this 4. no gonna justify that with a response because we have already talked about that 5. its not it seems to take on uniformity because you only get a glymps of it in your short life span but it is chaos 6. it sure is any you have failed to demonstrait other wise as I have pointed out to you the flaws in your logical proccess and you continue to ignor and if you got you logic from the bible I guess god didn't spell it out well enough in the bible |
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I love how you completly ignore the probablitity of abiogeseis this discussion is pointless if are not willing to do the leg work and either refute or call in to question what I bing to the table.... not like we haven't had this discussion before.but if you are unwilling to actually participate then we can stop. |
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you are ignoring the fact that there could be some other option. if you need to know what fallacies are go here http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm Quote:
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html Quote:
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The impossibility of an actual infinite in time: "Let's use an example of marbles". Imagine I had an infinite amount of marbles in my possession, and that I wanted to give you some. In fact, suppose I wanted to give you an infinite number of marbles. In that case I would have zero marbles left for myself. However, another way to do it would be to give you all the odd numbered marbles. Then I would still have an infinity left over for myself, and you would have an infinity too. You'd have just as many as I would - in fact, each of us would have just as many as I originally had before we divided into odd and even! Or another approach would be for me to give you all of the marbles numbered four and higher. That way, you would have an infinity of marbles, but I would have only three marbles left. What these illustrations demonstrate is that the notion of an actual infinite number of things leads to contradictory results. In the first case in which I gave you all the marbles, infinity minus infinity is zero; in the second case in which I gave you all the odd numbered marbles, infinity minus infinity is infinity; and in the third case in which I gave you all the marbles numbered four and greater, infinity minus infinity is three. In each case, we have subtracted the identical number, but we have come up with non-identical results" William Lane Craig, interviewed by Lee Strobel in The Case for a Creator, ch 5 Quote:
Actually it is a religion based on faith as NO ONE has observed evolution. The rest you have not addressed, and I don’t have the time to explain them again. Cheers |
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You know what.... if you are gonna fail to educate yourself on such matters as simple as evolution which is an observable science accepted as scientific fact even by christians and catholics then we are done here. My time is much to valuable to me than to waste it your cultish beliefs and twisted pitiful excuse for logic. we are done here I refuse do to the leg work while you sit over there and dick around with your ignorace in science. and no I am nto gonna justify the pathetic ramblings of apologist Lee Stroble with a response he does not have the respect of te theological community nor shall he have my respect you would have known this if you had done your home work and actually read privious threads on this board but alas you are only half heartedly going after any endevor regarding your website so it doesn't surprise me at all. |
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I'll save you some time. Just post one evolutionary fact that science has observed. (By the way, if in fact you know anything about the evolutionary theory, you have gotten it from faith in a book, or in evolutionary scientists. I'll give you a 'small' list of scientists who disagree: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...os/default.asp ) |
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Well, I wasn't the one, who brought up cause and effect, your x-tian co-believers did, but we've already had a discussion on this before. The x-tian notion is, as far as I've gathered from earlier discussions, that everything needs a cause, god is that cause and he himself always was and therefore is the only thing that needs no cause (ofcourse I don't agree with that, but let's once again go with that). Now you brought up the notion of evil and I'll throw satan in the mix, if god is the cause and everything else needs a cause, either god created evil/satan or just like god he/it doesn't need a cause, which would make him equal to god. If evilness is just as eternal as god, why choose good above evil, it even strikes down the theory of absolute morality. Either evil is eternal or it came from God! |
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OK, so omnipotence is out of the window, in the dictionary it says omnipotence means having unlimited power, but we have assessed that god cannot contradict himself, therefore there are limits to his power. Quote:
Once again there are limits to god noted, he can only do what is within his nature. So the omnipotent thing is definitely gone, but still he is a mighty powerful dude in your opinion. Why would an omniscient and omnipresent being create? Was god unhappy? Was god bored? If in the beginning there was only God and god was good, why create a possibility for evil to arise? Why, and god already knew what the outcome would be, create something where more than half of his children would burn for eternity? Is this goodness? Quote:
If he is so prevelant than we wouldn't be having this discussion, there would not be so many different religions with each again so many denominations and surely there would be no such thing as non-believers. There either is this prevelance or their isn't, the belief in prevelance does not relief you from the burden of proof, or you would have to proof the prevelance first, which given the arguements above is already disproven. |
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Perhaps there are only agnostics, as we have all questions we do not know how to answer and we all throw our best guess at it, based on the information (we think) we have. Why is a believer called just that, because he beliefs in god, he does not know god, at the very least not in his entirity. And the notion that an agnostic would have to go to church half the time is really ridiculous. What church? If I have not enough knowledge to vote for one of the 30 political parties in my country, should I vote for a different one in the 30 next upcoming elections? Agnostics cannot be consistent with their belief, because they have no belief, because they don't think they have enough knowledge to belief. The only consistent thing for an agnostic to do is gather more knowledge, perhaps even in a church or a mosque. Quote:
Once again, you're welcome :cheers: |
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Show me a dictionary definition that says unlimited power means the ability to do anything. Self-contradiction is not a power, it is a weakness. Quote:
For a reason which is perfectly sufficient for Him Quote:
Now this is where we agree. There isn't any such thing. "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1: 18 - 22) |
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True, we could never know God in His entirety, but we can know what God has revealed about Himself in His Word. |
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