yep, bass lines need to be done right, and I think we can all agree if someone does the bass lines besides Mark, then Mark will do better in playing the guitar and help Scott write good lyrics, but they might not do it.

wtf is sculpture rock?

and who the hell said Avril Lavigne is a band?

Yeah, some songs on Weathered flirted with pop-rock, but on the other hand, some of the songs were hard. take bullets for instance, that is a hard song. I remember the first time i heard that song i was like -is this Creed? i think that Weathered became more mainstream b/c of the success of HC, and they felt pressured to follow it up with something good.

Yeah, I'm sure Wind-Up Records had plenty to do with that pressure. I hope they can stand up to the execs and produce what they feel is honest music. Not that Weathered wasn't, but it did seem to have an aim toward pleasing everybody. And that just doesn't work most of the time.

I don't agree w/ blaming execs -- especially now that Creed has been so fiscally successful. Weathered was the way it was because CREED wanted it that way, not some evil executive dressed in a black suit.

I can kinda see your point, but in the final analysis, the final responsibility lies with the members of the band.

I think it's a little more complicated than that. The record labels wield quite a bit of control, financially and marketing/radio play-wise. It really depends on the deal they worked out. I'm not saying Creed are guiltless in this. It all boils down to how much money they want to make. Often, if a band wants commercial success, at least in these times, it has to give up some sort of creative control and adapt/change to what the labels believe will sell a million copies. There are several bands out there who are eschewing the major labels and going it alone, through the web or through their own companies. They don't get radio play because they can't afford to pay the station owners enough to play their stuff. Distribution deals are also key. Most of these bands going it alone tour and sell their CDs directly to fans. So yes, I agree that ultimately the responsiblity lies with the artist as far as what they want to create, but getting it out there is another story. Creed are established enough now, financially and otherwise, to be bold and do something that doesn't necessarily pander to the masses.

That's what I've been trying to say :)

So, we agree, I think. It's just that it is a two-way street. You have to have labels that are willing to take a chance on something if they think it's good. Unfortunately, that's just not the case today. It's all about the profit margin and making a killing quickly, rather than letting an artist develop and grow with each album. These days, if it doesn't go gold, there are no second chances for a lot of bands. And if the bands don't have the sound or formula the labels have determined will sell, they don't even have a chance in the first place. This homogenization is due in large part to a very few companies now controlling the labels, the radio stations and the concert venues. Clear Channel Entertainment is a perfect example. Demographic studies and marketing strategies have gone too far and are closing the public off to some really good music. It's out there, but most of America isn't hearing it.

My point was that Creed has pretty much free rein over what material they put out there because Wind Up knows Creed is their cash cow.

With this SPECIFIC case and at this SPECIFIC time, I don't think anyone can blame execs if Weathered sounded too commercial. I wasn't talking about record companies in general.

No artist has free rein when it comes to record labels. The minute they stop selling enough, Wind-Up won't be so eager to push them.

1) Creed themselves said they had, ostensibly, free rein on Weathered.

2) They've had free rein on all their videos for Weathered.

Conclusion: Weathered was, for all intensive purposes, exactly what Creed wanted to put out.

you know, if wind up is so evil, why wount they go to a smaller indie label -- they usually give artists more freedom.
guess wind up's paycheck is sweeter than freedom of art. oh well they got only dozen of millions each -- gotta get more, and art is secondary...

Uhm, Windup was an itty bitty label when Creed started up. Come to think of it, Wind Up is still a small label compared to the likes of Sony and their cohorts.

You assume that Creed makes music only for money -- pretty cynical, and I don't think that's true.

A lot of people said -- creed is getting a bit popier because wind up makes them. Well they are bands who dont.

And wind up is pretty big compared to most other indie lables. if creed was to sign with say Epitah, Anti, Ipecac or Discord, they'd have almost complete freedom of experession.

p.s. oh yeah wind up has at least 3 bands who went multi platinum. that's not itsy bitsy. Discord for example has been around longer and still doesnt have a gold record. Epitah got only one platinum record (offspring), and they lost offspring to a major label as soon as they got big. Itsy bitsy label is one that is happy to appear on billboard charts. wind up does it like nothing, so they are a success story but not a true indie label anymore.